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Is there any doubt that Djokovic is the Stats GOAT?

Endless GOAT and Big 3 Debate Megathread

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#1 · (Edited)
Welcome to the Endless GOAT Debate Mega thread. In an attempt to organize the never-ending and popular GOAT discussions on the forum, the MTF staff and a slight majority of the users who participated in the recent GM poll (as of 11/1/2020) agreed that this thread can and will be used for:
  • All basic GOAT Debate conversation. This means users can no longer open threads such as "Player X is the GOAT", or "Who is the GOAT?" anymore.
  • A dumpster where unique GOAT discussions that have veered off-topic into our typical GOAT debate can be placed.**
    • Unique GOAT discussions that can initially be in a separate thread in GM if they are stat-based, hypothetical, or achievement related.
**The moderators will do their best to evaluate when unique GOAT discussions have reached the point where it's just a typical GOAT debate. At that point, entire threads or just a handful of off-topic posts will be merged with this mega thread. Please be aware that the moderators' first course of action, if possible, will always be to move off-topic posts from these threads in an attempt to keep unique topics separate from this Endless Debate Thread. Also, typical ongoing GOAT debate threads will soon be locked and redirected to this thread.

The GM Rules will soon be updated with these additional rules. Users who violate these rules will be subject to discipline according to the MTF Site Rules and Guidelines.

If you have any questions, concerns, or feedback feel free to contact any of the staff members.

Now go ahead and debate folks... here are some of the other past threads to reminisce about.
Endless Era Debates
GOAT Discussions Vol. 2
 
#2 ·
Wait the poll was actually in favor of this?

I figured this would be one of those things that no one would vote for anyway so I didn't bother to vote against..

goddamit now we will have a clusterfuck even though the topic/question will be different each time.

Nobody actually just wants to speak freely about GOAT players and drivel off on them..

its always a topic or stat in question.
 
#8 · (Edited)
goddamit now we will have a clusterfuck even though the topic/question will be different each time.
I use special filtering rules in Chrome via extension to hide certain posts containing certain keywords, this one is just being added to the set. This way I do not have to block/ignore a member (because I don't have a reason), but do block certain topics from my eyes. Granted, knowledge for that goes beyond ordinary forum members. Given the fact this was started by Administrator, you can't simply ignore him :)

Also, I voted against it, and I was convinced it won't pass, because the poll results were so close (deciding factor was 3rd option). But, I guess it was enough.

One benefit will be much less GOAT topics that were popping out every other day lately, and that was much more annoying than this, for sure.
 
#3 ·
It would be better to have a goat subforum cause one thread isn't enough to contain all goats (and is more difficult to navigate).
 
#14 ·
This sentence/scenario is almost an impossibility and almost illogical.

If Rafa exceeds 18 slams, meaning he will win 5 more slams. And if Rafa wins 5 more slams, when do you think Djokovic will start collecting 7 more slams?

So, in your opinion, both of them would win a total of 12 slams = 3 years.

So, no one else will win a slam title until 2021/
Well, that was almost accurate. It's looking very likely right now that both Nadal and Djokovic will surpass Federer's slam count.
 
#16 ·
What about the line where the OP said that whether Nadal and Djokovic will be capable of competing against the young players, and mentions Goffin.
Though it's understandable in all seriousness, Goffin showed some promise back then, especially in 2017.
 
#44 ·
Tennis can change in a hurry. IF the younger generations finally get strong enough to regularly win best of 5, it may be all over the old guard right where they stand now.
But still yet to be proven. Thiem's COVID USO win is still a one-off for now. 2021 could tell us a lot, if the COVID goes away with vaccines.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 
#29 ·
I also have an NBA GOAT list

All time NBA GOATs, top 19

1. Michael Jordan- 6 titles, 6 Finals MVP, 5 Reg. season MVP= 17
2. Bill Russell- 11 titles, 5 reg. season MVP= 16
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabar- 6 titles, 2 Finals MVP, 6 Reg. season MVP= 14
4. Lebron James- 4 titles, 4 Finals MVP, 4 Reg. season MVP= 12
5. Magic Johnson- 5 titles, 3 Finals MVP, 3 Reg. season MVP= 11
6. Tim Duncan- 5 titles, 3 Finals MVP, 2 reg. season MVP= 10
7. Kobe Bryant- 5 titles, 2 Finals MVP, 1 reg. season MVP= 8
8. Shaquille O'Neal- 4 titles, 3 Finals MVP, 1 reg. season MVP= 8
9. Larry Bird- 3 titles, 2 Finals MVP, 3 Reg. season MVP= 8
10. Wilt Chamberlain- 2 titles, 1 Finals MVP, 4 reg. season MVP= 7
11. Julius Irving- 3 titles (2 ABA, 1 NBA), 2 Finals MVP (ABA, playoffs), 4 Reg season MVP (3 ABA, 1 NBA)= 9 total, 2 NBA, 7 ABA, call it 5.5

Olajuwon- 5
Durant- 5
Curry- 5
Willis Reed- 5
Moses Malone- 5
Kawhi- 4
Bill Walton- 4
D Wade- 4

Unfortunately, you don't get to be considered GOAT just because you racked up half of your slam total in a much weaker era. Taking into account their stronger era, both Nadal and Djokovic have honestly already passed him (see below).

Oh the old tired "era" argument. Yawn
 
#24 ·
Unfortunately, you don't get to be considered GOAT just because you racked up half of your slam total in a much weaker era. Taking into account their stronger era, both Nadal and Djokovic have honestly already passed him (see below).


Not All Twenties Are Created Equal
The top of the all-time men’s grand slam ranking just got even more crowded. With his 13th Roland Garros title, Rafael Nadal has matched Roger Federer at the top of the list by securing his 20th major title. Novak Djokovic, Nadal’s final obstacle en route to the historic mark, remains within shouting distance with 17 slams.
The Roger-Rafa tie has spurred another (interminable, unresolvable) round of the (interminable, unresolvable) GOAT debate. Of course there’s much more to determining the best ever than the slam count. But the slam count is a big part of the conversation. If we’re going to keep doing this, we ought to at least recognize that not all major titles are created equal. And by extension, not all collections of twenty major titles are equivalent.
We all have intuitions about the difficulty of how a particular draw shakes out, with its typical mix of good and bad fortune. Nadal was lucky that he missed a few dangerous opponents in the early rounds, luckier still that he didn’t have to face Dominic Thiem in the semi-final, and unfortunate that he had to face down the next-best player in the draw, Djokovic, in the final. As it turned out, it didn’t really matter, but I think most of us would agree that Nadal’s achievement–staggering as it is–would look even better had he faced more than two more players ranked in the top 70.
Stop dithering and start calculating
I’ve written about this before, and I’ve established a metric to quantify those intuitions. Take the surface-weighted Elo rating of each of a player’s opponents, and determine the probability that an average slam champion would beat those players. After a couple of steps to normalize the results, we end up with a single number for the path to each slam title. The larger the result, the more difficult the path, and an average slam works out to 1.0.
Nadal’s path was easier than the historical average. Aside from Djokovic, none of his opponents would have had more than an 8% chance of knocking out an average slam champion on clay. The exact result is 0.64, which is easier than almost nine-tenths of majors in the Open Era. Rafa has had three easier paths to his major titles, including the 2017 US Open, which scored only 0.33. That’s the easiest US Open, Wimbledon, or Roland Garros in a half-century.
Of course, he’s had his share of difficult paths, such as 2012 Roland Garros (1.36), when he faced several clay specialists and a peak-level Djokovic. Federer and Djokovic have gotten their own shares of lucky and unlucky draws over the years–that’s why we need a metric. You might have a better memory for this kind of thing than I do, but I don’t think any of us can weigh 57 majors with 7 opponents each and work out any meaningful results in our heads.
The tally
Sum up the difficulty of the title paths for these 57 slams, and here are the results:

Player Slams Avg Score Total
Nadal 20 0.95 19.0
Djokovic 17 1.06 18.1
Federer 20 0.89 17.9

Player Easy Medium Hard
Nadal 7 8 5
Djokovic 5 5 7
Federer 9 10 1

The first table shows each player’s average score for the paths to his major titles, and the total number of “adjusted slams” that gives them. Nadal is in the lead with 19, and Djokovic and Federer follow in a near-tie, just above and below 18.
You might be surprised to see the implication that this is a slightly weak era, with average scores a bit below 1.0. That wasn’t the case a few years ago, but there has only been one above-average title path since 2016. The Big Three-or-Four has generally stayed out of each other’s way since then, and even when they do clash, as they did yesterday, the leading contenders for quarter-final or semi-final challenges failed to make it that far. The average score of the last 15 slam title paths is a mere 0.73, while the 16 before that (spanning 2013-16) averaged 1.20.
The second table paints with a broader brush, classifying all Open Era slam titles into thirds: “easy,” “medium” and “hard” paths to the championship. Anything below 0.89 rates as “easy,” anything above 1.14 is marked as “hard,” with the remainder left as “medium.”
Djokovic is the leader in hard slams, with 7 of his 17 meriting that classification. Federer has racked up 10 medium slams, including several that score above 1.0, but only one that cleared the bar for the “hard” category. Nadal’s mix is more balanced.
Go yell at someone else
Hopefully these numbers have given you some new ammunition for your next twitter fight. Some of you will froth at the mouth while insisting that players can’t control who they play. You’re right, but it doesn’t really matter. We can’t start giving out GOAT points for things that players didn’t do, like beat Thiem in the 2020 French Open semi-finals. All three of these guys were or are good enough at various points to have beaten some of the opponents they didn’t have to face. There are other approaches we could take to the GOAT debate that incorporate peak Elo ratings and longevity at various levels, but that’s not what we’re talking about when we count slams.
If we are going to focus so much on the slam count, we might as well acknowledge that Nadal’s 20 is better than Federer’s 20, and Djokovic’s 17 is awfully close to both of them.
 
#25 ·
I agree that Federer is still the GOAT for now, but I don't think he will stay in that position for long. I would maybe rank Nadal higher if he gets to 21, and I would definitely rank him higher if he gets to 22. Djokovic would need 20 assuming everything else stays the same (i.e. Nadal doesn't win more slams). I think both Djokovic and Nadal still have a few slams in them.
 
#32 ·
Federer can't play, he's nowhere near as strong as Nadal and Djokovic, and he won his Slams in a weak era, whereas Nadal and Djokovic won their Slams in a strong era.

What makes Nadal and Djokovic's era so strong?

Well, it's got a 39 year-old injured Federer in it.
 
#36 ·
he is at the moment, but over the coming years that position could certainly change still. I look forward to Roger's return to the tour.
 
#39 ·
Basically the argument boils down to Federer's slams were in a weaker area because Federer didn't have to complete against a 30+ years old Federer. Why is Serena Williams chasing slam count when Margaret Court won 11 of her slams at the obscure Australian Open? Because that's how GOAThood debates get settled. If Nadal wins 21 and Federer doesn't he'll be considered the GOAT by the general tennis public. Fans will be fans but that's about it.
 
#42 ·
Also, Groove, I feel your NBA system is flawed. LeBron arguably should have won a dozen NBA MVPs (he's been inarguably the best player in the league since about 2005-2006). MJ also should have won several more than he did as well that journalists just simply did not give him.