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Is there any doubt that Djokovic is the Stats GOAT?

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Fed can't be the GOAT considering the competition against which he won his 1st 10 or so slams. It's not all about numbers (another example: NBA basketball, Jordan with 6 > Bill Russell with 11).
 
Unfortunately, you don't get to be considered GOAT just because you racked up half of your slam total in a much weaker era. Taking into account their stronger era, both Nadal and Djokovic have honestly already passed him (see below).


Not All Twenties Are Created Equal
The top of the all-time men’s grand slam ranking just got even more crowded. With his 13th Roland Garros title, Rafael Nadal has matched Roger Federer at the top of the list by securing his 20th major title. Novak Djokovic, Nadal’s final obstacle en route to the historic mark, remains within shouting distance with 17 slams.
The Roger-Rafa tie has spurred another (interminable, unresolvable) round of the (interminable, unresolvable) GOAT debate. Of course there’s much more to determining the best ever than the slam count. But the slam count is a big part of the conversation. If we’re going to keep doing this, we ought to at least recognize that not all major titles are created equal. And by extension, not all collections of twenty major titles are equivalent.
We all have intuitions about the difficulty of how a particular draw shakes out, with its typical mix of good and bad fortune. Nadal was lucky that he missed a few dangerous opponents in the early rounds, luckier still that he didn’t have to face Dominic Thiem in the semi-final, and unfortunate that he had to face down the next-best player in the draw, Djokovic, in the final. As it turned out, it didn’t really matter, but I think most of us would agree that Nadal’s achievement–staggering as it is–would look even better had he faced more than two more players ranked in the top 70.
Stop dithering and start calculating
I’ve written about this before, and I’ve established a metric to quantify those intuitions. Take the surface-weighted Elo rating of each of a player’s opponents, and determine the probability that an average slam champion would beat those players. After a couple of steps to normalize the results, we end up with a single number for the path to each slam title. The larger the result, the more difficult the path, and an average slam works out to 1.0.
Nadal’s path was easier than the historical average. Aside from Djokovic, none of his opponents would have had more than an 8% chance of knocking out an average slam champion on clay. The exact result is 0.64, which is easier than almost nine-tenths of majors in the Open Era. Rafa has had three easier paths to his major titles, including the 2017 US Open, which scored only 0.33. That’s the easiest US Open, Wimbledon, or Roland Garros in a half-century.
Of course, he’s had his share of difficult paths, such as 2012 Roland Garros (1.36), when he faced several clay specialists and a peak-level Djokovic. Federer and Djokovic have gotten their own shares of lucky and unlucky draws over the years–that’s why we need a metric. You might have a better memory for this kind of thing than I do, but I don’t think any of us can weigh 57 majors with 7 opponents each and work out any meaningful results in our heads.
The tally
Sum up the difficulty of the title paths for these 57 slams, and here are the results:

Player Slams Avg Score Total
Nadal 20 0.95 19.0
Djokovic 17 1.06 18.1
Federer 20 0.89 17.9

Player Easy Medium Hard
Nadal 7 8 5
Djokovic 5 5 7
Federer 9 10 1

The first table shows each player’s average score for the paths to his major titles, and the total number of “adjusted slams” that gives them. Nadal is in the lead with 19, and Djokovic and Federer follow in a near-tie, just above and below 18.
You might be surprised to see the implication that this is a slightly weak era, with average scores a bit below 1.0. That wasn’t the case a few years ago, but there has only been one above-average title path since 2016. The Big Three-or-Four has generally stayed out of each other’s way since then, and even when they do clash, as they did yesterday, the leading contenders for quarter-final or semi-final challenges failed to make it that far. The average score of the last 15 slam title paths is a mere 0.73, while the 16 before that (spanning 2013-16) averaged 1.20.
The second table paints with a broader brush, classifying all Open Era slam titles into thirds: “easy,” “medium” and “hard” paths to the championship. Anything below 0.89 rates as “easy,” anything above 1.14 is marked as “hard,” with the remainder left as “medium.”
Djokovic is the leader in hard slams, with 7 of his 17 meriting that classification. Federer has racked up 10 medium slams, including several that score above 1.0, but only one that cleared the bar for the “hard” category. Nadal’s mix is more balanced.
Go yell at someone else
Hopefully these numbers have given you some new ammunition for your next twitter fight. Some of you will froth at the mouth while insisting that players can’t control who they play. You’re right, but it doesn’t really matter. We can’t start giving out GOAT points for things that players didn’t do, like beat Thiem in the 2020 French Open semi-finals. All three of these guys were or are good enough at various points to have beaten some of the opponents they didn’t have to face. There are other approaches we could take to the GOAT debate that incorporate peak Elo ratings and longevity at various levels, but that’s not what we’re talking about when we count slams.
If we are going to focus so much on the slam count, we might as well acknowledge that Nadal’s 20 is better than Federer’s 20, and Djokovic’s 17 is awfully close to both of them.
 
I agree that Federer is still the GOAT for now, but I don't think he will stay in that position for long. I would maybe rank Nadal higher if he gets to 21, and I would definitely rank him higher if he gets to 22. Djokovic would need 20 assuming everything else stays the same (i.e. Nadal doesn't win more slams). I think both Djokovic and Nadal still have a few slams in them.
 
Unfortunately, you don't get to be considered GOAT just because you racked up half of your slam total in a much weaker era. Taking into account their stronger era, both Nadal and Djokovic have honestly already passed him (see below).

You don't get to be the goat when you've got 3 slams less than 2 other players. Rafa has a good case, Djokovic doesn't.
 
You don't get to be the goat when you've got 3 slams less than 2 other players. Rafa has a good case, Djokovic doesn't.
Not according to the stats.

The tally
Sum up the difficulty of the title paths for these 57 slams, and here are the results:

Player Slams Avg Score Total
Nadal 20 0.95 19.0
Djokovic 17 1.06 18.1
Federer 20 0.89 17.9

Player Easy Medium Hard
Nadal 7 8 5
Djokovic 5 5 7
Federer 9 10 1

The first table shows each player’s average score for the paths to his major titles, and the total number of “adjusted slams” that gives them. Nadal is in the lead with 19, and Djokovic and Federer follow in a near-tie, just above and below 18.
 
Fed can't be the GOAT considering the competition against which he won his 1st 10 or so slams. It's not all about numbers (another example: NBA basketball, Jordan with 6 > Bill Russell with 11).
I also have an NBA GOAT list

All time NBA GOATs, top 19

1. Michael Jordan- 6 titles, 6 Finals MVP, 5 Reg. season MVP= 17
2. Bill Russell- 11 titles, 5 reg. season MVP= 16
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabar- 6 titles, 2 Finals MVP, 6 Reg. season MVP= 14
4. Lebron James- 4 titles, 4 Finals MVP, 4 Reg. season MVP= 12
5. Magic Johnson- 5 titles, 3 Finals MVP, 3 Reg. season MVP= 11
6. Tim Duncan- 5 titles, 3 Finals MVP, 2 reg. season MVP= 10
7. Kobe Bryant- 5 titles, 2 Finals MVP, 1 reg. season MVP= 8
8. Shaquille O'Neal- 4 titles, 3 Finals MVP, 1 reg. season MVP= 8
9. Larry Bird- 3 titles, 2 Finals MVP, 3 Reg. season MVP= 8
10. Wilt Chamberlain- 2 titles, 1 Finals MVP, 4 reg. season MVP= 7
11. Julius Irving- 3 titles (2 ABA, 1 NBA), 2 Finals MVP (ABA, playoffs), 4 Reg season MVP (3 ABA, 1 NBA)= 9 total, 2 NBA, 7 ABA, call it 5.5

Olajuwon- 5
Durant- 5
Curry- 5
Willis Reed- 5
Moses Malone- 5
Kawhi- 4
Bill Walton- 4
D Wade- 4

Unfortunately, you don't get to be considered GOAT just because you racked up half of your slam total in a much weaker era. Taking into account their stronger era, both Nadal and Djokovic have honestly already passed him (see below).

Oh the old tired "era" argument. Yawn
 
Unfortunately, you don't get to be considered GOAT just because you racked up half of your slam total in a much weaker era. Taking into account their stronger era, both Nadal and Djokovic have honestly already passed him (see below).

Who wrote this, you? ? Sure, "tennis analytics"

GOATerer. Praise his name!
 
The biggest problem for Nadovic is that there was no younger version of themselves to face, which Federer had to. So that's why they call this the Weak Era.

But this tournament shows that their supposed better mentality is questionable; more like 0-4ovic and broke-to-love dal.
 
Federer can't play, he's nowhere near as strong as Nadal and Djokovic, and he won his Slams in a weak era, whereas Nadal and Djokovic won their Slams in a strong era.

What makes Nadal and Djokovic's era so strong?

Well, it's got a 39 year-old injured Federer in it.
 
Oh the old tired "era" argument. Yawn
There's an enormous difference between winning slams when your opposition is Nadal/Federer/Murray (two all-time greats and a top 20 player of all time) and when it is Hewitt/Roddick/Baghdatis/Philippousis, no? Seems like it makes some sense to account for that if you're going to be entering into the GOAT conversation. TennisAbstract does above and it does not come out so favourably for the old man.
 
Not according to the stats.

The tally
Sum up the difficulty of the title paths for these 57 slams, and here are the results:

Player Slams Avg Score Total
Nadal 20 0.95 19.0
Djokovic 17 1.06 18.1
Federer 20 0.89 17.9

Player Easy Medium Hard
Nadal 7 8 5
Djokovic 5 5 7
Federer 9 10 1

The first table shows each player’s average score for the paths to his major titles, and the total number of “adjusted slams” that gives them. Nadal is in the lead with 19, and Djokovic and Federer follow in a near-tie, just above and below 18.
No one but extreme tennis nerds are even going to know that. The vast majority of people will simply go on slam count and for now it's 20:20:17.
 
he is at the moment, but over the coming years that position could certainly change still. I look forward to Roger's return to the tour.
 
No one but extreme tennis nerds are even going to know that. The vast majority of people will simply go on slam count and for now it's 20:20:17.
Well that's on them for not being informed. Those of us who truly know what was going on know that not all slams are as impressive as others (see Thiem's win in the USO this year).
 
I also have an NBA GOAT list

All time NBA GOATs, top 19

1. Michael Jordan- 6 titles, 6 Finals MVP, 5 Reg. season MVP= 17
2. Bill Russell- 11 titles, 5 reg. season MVP= 16
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabar- 6 titles, 2 Finals MVP, 6 Reg. season MVP= 14
4. Lebron James- 4 titles, 4 Finals MVP, 4 Reg. season MVP= 12
5. Magic Johnson- 5 titles, 3 Finals MVP, 3 Reg. season MVP= 11
6. Tim Duncan- 5 titles, 3 Finals MVP, 2 reg. season MVP= 10
7. Kobe Bryant- 5 titles, 2 Finals MVP, 1 reg. season MVP= 8
8. Shaquille O'Neal- 4 titles, 3 Finals MVP, 1 reg. season MVP= 8
9. Larry Bird- 3 titles, 2 Finals MVP, 3 Reg. season MVP= 8
10. Wilt Chamberlain- 2 titles, 1 Finals MVP, 4 reg. season MVP= 7
11. Julius Irving- 3 titles (2 ABA, 1 NBA), 2 Finals MVP (ABA, playoffs), 4 Reg season MVP (3 ABA, 1 NBA)= 9 total, 2 NBA, 7 ABA, call it 5.5

Olajuwon- 5
Durant- 5
Curry- 5
Willis Reed- 5
Moses Malone- 5
Kawhi- 4
Bill Walton- 4
D Wade- 4
I don't think the titles and the individual accomplishments should be counted as equal, title has much more weight. Plus there are also other things in bball like defense, which was the Bill Russell's biggest strength. He slowed down Wilt significantly in multiple finals.

So without the eye test and with all eras are equal approach, Bill Russell would be GOAT by far. But objectively, he isn't even close.
 
Basically the argument boils down to Federer's slams were in a weaker area because Federer didn't have to complete against a 30+ years old Federer. Why is Serena Williams chasing slam count when Margaret Court won 11 of her slams at the obscure Australian Open? Because that's how GOAThood debates get settled. If Nadal wins 21 and Federer doesn't he'll be considered the GOAT by the general tennis public. Fans will be fans but that's about it.
 
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