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Murray has a better HC record than Nadal against both Federer and Djokovic

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6.6K views 79 replies 47 participants last post by  Heroic Atreides  
#1 ·
Hardcourt H2H vs Federer :
Murray - 10 wins and 12 losses (45.45% success rate)
Nadal - 9 wins and 11 losses (45.00% success rate)

Hardcourt H2H vs Djokovic :
Murray - 8 wins and 20 losses (28.57% success rate)
Nadal - 7 wins and 20 losses (25.93% success rate)


A couple more interesting stats ON HARDCOURTS :

Murray against the top 5 - 42 wins and 49 losses (46.15% success rate)
Nadal against the top 5 = 30 wins and 43 losses (41.10% success rate)

Murray against the top 10 = 81 wins and 66 losses (55.10% success rate)
Nadal against the top 10 = 75 wins and 75 losses (50.00% success rate)

@Moozza's thoughts are needed !
 
#5 ·
It's really too bad that murray got injured so bad just when he reached number one. I don't know if it was bad luck or that he pushed his body too hard to get there. But he deserved some years trying to defend being the top player. Especially as he had conquered the biggest challenge in tennis. At least he did get to number one in the end. Would've been unfair if he hadn't.
 
#68 ·
That brutal 2017 French Open semifinal between Warwinka and Murray was the beginning of the end for both Warwinka and Murray.

I am not an expert so wouldn't say that much turned their bodies into a wreck; but I can safely say that match was the turning point which turned their bodies into a wreck, they simply pushed themselves and each other too far.
 
#9 ·
Only fair to point out that Nadal had more really big wins in there though. I think Andy over the course of his career was a better, more natural hardcourt player, but Nadal had more mental strength, and it showed in having more slam wins over Rog/Novak.

But yeah, this is why Nadal was never really in the running for GOAT for me - even if he'd had the most slams. Just think in some ways his HC record is surprisingly disappointing (by the standards of a GOAT contender), and his indoor HC record is unbelievably bad. But obviously his legacy was secure long ago as the best clay player there'll ever be.
 
#36 ·
Only fair to point out that Nadal had more really big wins in there though. I think Andy over the course of his career was a better, more natural hardcourt player, but Nadal had more mental strength, and it showed in having more slam wins over Rog/Novak.

But yeah, this is why Nadal was never really in the running for GOAT for me - even if he'd had the most slams. Just think in some ways his HC record is surprisingly disappointing (by the standards of a GOAT contender), and his indoor HC record is unbelievably bad. But obviously his legacy was secure long ago as the best clay player there'll ever be.
But as argument Nadal has taken part of the vast majority of the most epic matches of the last 20 years.. more often than Djokovic or even Federer. Think in Wimbledon 2007, Wimbledon 2008, Wimbledon 2018 SF, AO 2009, AO2012, AO2017, USO 2013, USO 2019F, RG 2013 SF, RG 2021 SF, Rome 2006 F. people have memory for a reason, most of Epic matches had Nadal involved in it..
unlike some matches that were epic only because some player was mentally fragile when it mattered.. Such as Wimbledon 2019 Final where Federer should have won in 4 max.. but he brainfarted the whole match..

That is Why for me Fedal are Goats, because of the Wow factor of their playing, in the case of Federer versatility/variety that surprises you, and in the case of Nadal his intensity and how he can bully you when he is on.. While Djokovic has always been more like a chess player.
 
#10 ·
On indoor hard courts Murray is definitely better. I'd say he's also the better of the 2 when it comes to best-of-3 on outdoor hard courts.
The problem is, the gap in Slams between the 2 is too big.
Nadal has 5 legitimate hard court Grand Slam titles while Murray has one. Nadal has 11 finals while Murray has 7.
Given this I'd say Nadal has a slight advantage on outdoor hard courts, even if I'd like it to be the other way around. However, the gap between Nadal and Murray in hard courts is smaller than the gap between Murray and Nadal on grass.
 
#17 ·
Lol
It's only due to the fact Murray won USO F vs Djokovic and a few wins over Fed.
The fact he was routinely beaten in AO finals vs Djokovic annuls his slight statistical lead over Rafa on HC. He never even pushed Djoko to a 5 set at AO
 
#45 · (Edited)
Even that I agree Murray is a great hardcourt player, this is kinda surprising to me. But what about slam matches? I assume Nadal is better than, since he beat Djokovic and Federer multiple times on hardcourt slams.
2 HC wins vs Nole is hardly ‘multiple’ or a sample to go by & his 0-9 on it since 2013 is clearly more telling.

The Mallorcan escaping an injured Serb in 2017 & fully fit but banned in 2022 to preserve their H2H on HC is also quite telling.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Murray is an ATG, and possibly top 15 of all time. He won less slams because he had to deal with the 3 best players of all time while they all were in form usually. However, I’d take Nadal over Murray on outdoor hard courts based on the large slam difference. Indoor hard courts, Murray’s atp final win puts him over Nadal. I’d say on grass courts the gap between Murray and Nadal is pretty close though. Both have two Wimbledons, but Nadal has more finals, while Murray has the Olympic gold
 
#26 ·
Yep, Nadal was great vs both of them but since 2013 he's been a disaster and his % plummeted.


When Murray beat Nadal in the USO 2008 I thought he would cause him a lot of trouble going forward but that wasn't the case, in fact he did poor on many occasions like their Wimbledon matches given it was Murray's best surface or USO 2011 when Nadal was beatable.


He did very well when he beat him in Australia, even if Nadal was not fully fit.

Against Federer his problem was at slams. He was doing great Bo3 with some nice wins but being destroyed at slams.


I have always suspected Murray was better than Nadal on hard court. This confirms it.

Murray has 1 HC slam, Nadal has 6.


He is also better than him on grass
This one actually has a strong case.

and is obviously also better than Djokovic on grass.
Djokovic is better than Nadal and Murray combined on grass. You can add Murray and Nadal's Wimbledon titles, multiply them by 2, and they are only ahead by one (for now). That's how superior Djokovic is.



Not bad. Great in fact, just inferior to the other two.
 
#31 ·
Murray won only 1 HC slam to Nadal's 6. Really huge difference there to ignore. Hate to say it but Nadal is still a better HC player overall. This stat is not that surprising tho. Nadal got trashed by Fedovic off-clay since 2013.
 
#73 ·
Rafa is by far the better big match player. Sometimes you also need a little luck to go your way. I would say that Nadal was a bit luckier than Murray with his draws at slams. Rafa/Federer/Djokovic have the mentality of a champion. Murray just wasn't as good at taking his chances. There is a reason why his slam final record was so poor. T0 be fair to him, I am certain his record would be significantly better he he had the privilege of facing Anderson/Berrettini/Ruud, etc. in slam finals. He only got one easy slam final which was Raonic. Rest were all against GOAT level players.

On another note, I di believe what truly put Murray behind the other 3 guys was his second serve. That second serve was just sooooo poor. 70mph... not much spin on it. You compare that to pretty much anyone else in the top 10... He basically could not depend on his second serve at all. The rest of his game was top notch. One of the best movers, solid fh (was great on the run), one of the best bhs (could do anything with it), one of the best returns (imo he returned first serves from big servers better than Djokovic while Djoko returned second serves better and more aggressively), etc.
 
#32 ·
Not really a fan of non slam consistency stats but nevertheless, great consistency from Murray. Shame he got a career changing injury or more Wimbledons for sure.

Better record against Djokovic on grass than Federer or Nadal as well - 100% and 0 sets won by Djokovic.

Also best of 5 matches on grass against Federer before 2014 when he was like 32-33,

Murray 1-1
Nadal - 1-2
Djokovic - 0-1

For me prime level or close to prime matches are much better indicator of what's really going on more than old man matches, or matches when player is good but not consistent like Wimbledon 2015, Murray coming back from the back injury in 2014 vs Olderer.
 
#38 ·
Come on, people. Murray got the best of his abilities. That was why in the 2nd half of 2016, he had to make the most of his chance at #1. He knew that with Djokovic regaining his health, and with Fedal resurging, he had no chance.

Murray made the most out of the two slam matches in 2012-13 against Djokovic when Djokovic was rudderless. That was why Djoko had Becker re-direct him to the summit. If Murray didn't get injured in '16, it wouldn't any difference. He wasn't going to beat Djokovic anywhere after '13.
 
#49 ·
[...] Being 1 and having 3 slams is better than 4 or 5 slams with no 1.
Don't know about that. I think 2 more slams would have done more for his legacy than his brief spell as no 1.
Disagree. Reaching BOTH achievements is a huge plus (winning slams and being 1). Especially since it wasn't so brief. Year-end AND 40 weeks or so. If it was a brief spell and with no YE more debatable.
I think BauerAlmeida has a point here. For example, Boris Becker won 6 slams and spent a total of just 12 weeks as No. 1, but it clearly meant a lot to him personally as well as for his place in the hierarchy that he did reach the top of the world rankings, however briefly. For Murray, taking the No. 1 spot from Djokovic was undoubtedly one of his greatest achievements.
 
#51 ·
I think BauerAlmeida has a point here. For example, Boris Becker won 6 slams and spent a total of just 12 weeks as No. 1, but it clearly meant a lot to him personally as well as for his place in the hierarchy that he did reach the top of the world rankings, however briefly. For Murray, taking the No. 1 spot from Djokovic was undoubtedly one of his greatest achievements.
Maybe, but I just feel that Murray getting 5 slams would separate him clearly from Wawrinka who he (however unjustly) sometimes gets compared to.
 
#50 ·
Rafa is a big match player and brings out his best in grand slams, as it has already been pointed out in HC major titles comparison; 6 vs. 1.

Rafa is 5-4 H2H v. Fedole in majors. 3-1 v. Fed in AO, 2-1 v. Djok in USO.

Murray is 2-9 H2H v. Fedole in majors. Didn't lead Fedole at either AO or USO.
 
#63 ·
It is called competition. He was coming up against great players in pretty much every final because it was an extremely strong era.

Now the era is really poor and he gets to play mediocre players or inexperienced kids in finals and hence wins more.