Mens Tennis Forums banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Is there now a trend towards winning the WTF, then fading away in the following months? This seems to have happened to Murray, Dimitrov and now Zverev in turn. I am not slating these players - I have huge respect for all of them - but there does seem to be something of a pattern. I wonder if it means players who win it are more likely to still be burned out at the start of the new season, causing a knock-on effect on their future performances.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,120 Posts
IMO 2 of those you mentioned vultured WTF. Dimitrov played Goffin who did the job by beating Fed in SF (+ Rafa in the group), and Zverev fed off subpar performance by Novak in the final who beat him in the group (not butthurt, win is a win, he was better that day). So I'd say those were fluke runs, rather than a trend to fade afterwards. The only difference is that there is space and time for AZ in the future to break out of a slump, while I believe it's not same for Dimitrov who is fading more and more. WTF was much harder to win before, and yet winners would do well in the next season. Nowadays you got Isner, Sock, etc (no disrespect) finishing in the top 8 in ATP race.

Murray, on the other hand, overworked himself in 2016, and his body paid for it, but he didn't break until almost half of 2017. after that RG SF loss...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,087 Posts
IMO 2 of those you mentioned vultured WTF. Dimitrov played Goffin who did the job by beating Fed in SF (+ Rafa in the group), and Zverev fed off subpar performance by Novak in the final who beat him in the group (not butthurt, win is a win, he was better that day). So I'd say those were fluke runs, rather than a trend to fade afterwards. The only difference is that there is space and time for AZ in the future to break out of a slump, while I believe it's not same for Dimitrov who is fading more and more. WTF was much harder to win before, and yet winners would do well in the next season. Nowadays you got Isner, Sock, etc (no disrespect) finishing in the top 8 in ATP race.

Murray, on the other hand, overworked himself in 2016, and his body paid for it, but he didn't break until almost half of 2017. after that RG SF loss...
Nahh Dimitrov was clearly playing spectacular tennis during that run and since Cincinnati as a whole...

so it is perplexing.

When it really started going downhill for him was after the Rotterdam final, where the ump questioned his effort.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,120 Posts
Nahh Dimitrov was clearly playing spectacular tennis during that run and since Cincinnati as a whole...

so it is perplexing.

When it really started going downhill for him was after the Rotterdam final, where the ump questioned his effort.
TBH I didn't quite follow him afterwards, you'd know more surely, but I would bet he wouldn't win it if he had Fed or Nadal across the net. But that's not the topic here anyways.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,283 Posts
IMO 2 of those you mentioned vultured WTF. Dimitrov played Goffin who did the job by beating Fed in SF (+ Rafa in the group), and Zverev fed off subpar performance by Novak in the final who beat him in the group (not butthurt, win is a win, he was better that day). So I'd say those were fluke runs, rather than a trend to fade afterwards. The only difference is that there is space and time for AZ in the future to break out of a slump, while I believe it's not same for Dimitrov who is fading more and more. WTF was much harder to win before, and yet winners would do well in the next season. Nowadays you got Isner, Sock, etc (no disrespect) finishing in the top 8 in ATP race.

Murray, on the other hand, overworked himself in 2016, and his body paid for it, but he didn't break until almost half of 2017. after that RG SF loss...
How is it a fluke run when he already won 3 masters title before and beat the best players in the WTF Federer and Djokovic back to back? He’s in a slump right now but there is nothing fluky about Zverev’s WTF run and the fact that this myth is spread around in this forum or Tennis Twitter is quite perplexing. Sometimes it seems people forget how young Zverev is too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,120 Posts
How is it a fluke run when he already won 3 masters title before and beat the best players in the WTF Federer and Djokovic back to back? He’s in a slump right now but there is nothing fluky about Zverev’s WTF run and the fact that this myth is spread around in this forum or Tennis Twitter is quite perplexing. Sometimes it seems people forget how young Zverev is too.
My points have been dismantled, glad I didn't comment on Murray...
It was unexpected for me after his poor GS runs and being defeated in the group and Shanghai by Novak. I honestly didn't believe he could pull it off, yet he mustered up some mental strength and stopped being UE machine.
In my post I also pointed out his age and chances to get out of a slump.
Yeah, fluke is probably the wrong (and maybe even disrespectful) word there, an unexpected run would fit better. As for his online portrayal, he has become a joke of a tennis fandom mostly because of lack of GS success, make a breakthrough and it's gone...Like DiCaprio and Oscars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,409 Posts
Zverev's slump seems to be a product of off-court happenings. Since WTF he's had a break-up, his father fell ill and he's now entangled in a legal battle with his former manager and has to do manager stuff by himself.

I think we are so used to seeing the winners of WTF confirm their results in the following year, but that's pretty much a Big 3 thing.

Or rather, it's what Federer and Djokovic did.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,283 Posts
My points have been dismantled, glad I didn't comment on Murray...
It was unexpected for me after his poor GS runs and being defeated in the group and Shanghai by Novak. I honestly didn't believe he could pull it off, yet he mustered up some mental strength and stopped being UE machine.
In my post I also pointed out his age and chances to get out of a slump.
Yeah, fluke is probably the wrong (and maybe even disrespectful) word there, an unexpected run would fit better. As for his online portrayal, he has become a joke of a tennis fandom mostly because of lack of GS success, make a breakthrough and it's gone...Like DiCaprio and Oscars.
Shanghai SF was a bit bizarre no doubt, but imo the run didn’t come out of nowhere. He won the most matches in 2018, #1 in BO3 points based on the rankings. He did make QF onwards for 7/9 iirc in 2018. Fairly consistent
 

·
|
Joined
·
14,305 Posts
Rafa almost won the WTF in 2010 (3 set loss to Federer in the Final) and then complained during 2011 that he'd lost his passion : )
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Im looking at their results/stats/matches after winning the WTF and im not seeing anything?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of them have even been in a M1000 final, let alone won a M1000 since winning the WTF.

There are obviously reasons for this in each individual case, but I'm just curious as to whether it may be part of a bigger trend.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,366 Posts
Nah, I think three different unrelated situations.

Murray clearly ruined his body trying to get to #1 and win the WTF. He succeeded in doing so, hopefully the juice was worth the squeeze.

Dimitrov has always been very streaky since his level is so dependent on his confidence and rhythm. He actually did pretty well in the '18 AO (although the loss to Edmund was bad) but his serve seemed to collapse. And the rest of his confidence fell apart.

Zverev has a number of off the court things going on (as another poster mentioned) and, given how emotional and entitled he is, has clearly let that impact the way he plays. He's young, so he should turn it around at some point. Too good not to.
 

·
Onwards and Upwards!
Joined
·
46,335 Posts
These three players have all slumped for different reasons. Andy put his body through the ringer during the last portion of 2016 in order to end the year #1. He didn’t give himself any rest afterwards and paid the price in 2017.

Dimitrov is inconsistent at the best of times, and at worst, consistently bad.

Zverev is mostly off court stuff I think. He’ll get it together. He certainly hasn’t burnt out.

The only one you could say burnt out is Andy, and he didn’t exactly burn out. He bent after a very arduous, fantastic year and then eventually broke the following few months.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,365 Posts
There does seem to be some sort of pattern of winning it and then not being able to build on that success. Not saying they all "burn out," but for one reason or another, winning the WTF hasn't been a catalyst for greater achievements. Same thing happened with Davydenko. After he won it, he sustained a wrist injury the following year, and his results and form continued to decline from there.

Seems to happen for winners not named Federer or Djokovic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
968 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of them have even been in a M1000 final, let alone won a M1000 since winning the WTF.

There are obviously reasons for this in each individual case, but I'm just curious as to whether it may be part of a bigger trend.
But is Dimitrov expected to be in M1000 finals? Its not like he reached 13 M1000 finals before winning WTF and then stopped getting there. IIRC Dimitrov has only ever reached one M1000 final and that was without beating any of the 'big4' players. He only won WTF because of the draw. His WTF draw looked like ATP Stockholm 250.

Zverev is playing like shit, thats true.

Murray played a final, close 3-setter in Doha against Djokovic and won Dubai 500 tournament. He was also a tiebreak away from reaching the RG final. And thats all with his body breaking down. Hes had random losses before the WTF too, pretty much every season.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,409 Posts
I looked at the list of past WTF winners, and it seems that winning this particular tournament is not a catalyst for greater things by any means. The vast majority of champions are ATGs or slam winners with 1-3 slams to their names, all of them already established powerhouses by the time they won their first WTF.

Dimitrov and Zverev (as of now) are exceptions to the rule. I can see things changing for Zverev, but we will have to wait and see.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
What the fuck are you talking about? Zverev played very well in this match. This thread is one week late, it seems.
I agree that he played very well in today's match. No need for expletives.

I am a fan of Zverev's playing style and would love to see him build on his success at the WTF where he beat Federer and Djokovic back-to-back. All I meant was that I believe he has underachieved since then compared to the dizzying heights he has reached in the past, but as people have said, there are most likely reasons for that off the court, and I am not passing any judgement.

I really hope he can win more M1000s before long and even start to reach slam finals. He certainly has the talent for it.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top