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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
OK, here's another one.

I'd like to hear MTF's opinion on: why do young players suck so much on grass?

I've checked all TOP50 players below 25 years of age and they have combined 0 (zero) quarter finals appearances at Wimbledon* Please see the list below:

Rank/ Name/ Best Wimbledon Result

(4) Medvedev (24yo) – R3
(6) Tsitsipas (22yo) – R4
(7) Medvedev (23yo) – R4
(8) Rublev (23yo) – R2
(10) Berrettini (24yo) – R4
(12) Shapovalov (21yo) – R2
(20) Khachanov (24yo) – R4
(21) Auger-Aliassime (20yo) – R3
(22) Garin (24yo) – R1
(23) de Minaur (21yo) – R3
(24) Coric (24yo) – R2
(27) Ruud (21yo) – R1
(29) Fritz (23yo) – R2
(30) Humbert (22yo) – R4
(34) Hurkacz (23yo) – R3
(37) Sinner (19yo) – Q1
(39) Opelka (23yo) – R3
(44) Kecmanovic (21yo) – R2
(50) Bublik (23yo) – R1

Let's have some serious discussion and try to understand - what's the problem there.

*We all know Wimbledon 2020 was cancelled but even if we take that into account the next generation is not doing great on grass at least until 2019
 

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Experience, mental stamina, touch, placement over power, all things young players are still working on

This is why Fed still thinks he can win Wimbledon at 400 years old
 

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justice for all
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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
You say "experience". That's not convincing to me. For comparison let's take players from two previous generations and check when they first reached Wimbledon QF (or better!):

Federer – 20
Nadal – 20
Djokovic – 20
Baghdatis – 20
Roddick – 20
Nalbandian – 20

Hewitt – 21
Murray – 21
Gasquet – 21

Berdych – 22

Dimitrov – 23
Raonic – 23

del Potro – 24

Tsonga – 25

So you can see it's not just the BIG3...
Were these players more experienced at the same age? Why?
 

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You say "experience". That's not convincing to me. For comparison let's take players from two previous generations and check when they first reached Wimbledon QF (or better!):

Federer – 20
Nadal – 20
Djokovic – 20
Baghdatis – 20

Hewitt – 21
Murray – 21
Gasquet – 21

Berdych – 22

Dimitrov – 23
Raonic – 23

Tsonga – 25

So you can see it's not just the BIG3...
Were these players more experienced at the same age? Why?
Game was taught different back in the day

Every player you listed has separate ingredients for grass success. Some could bot better, others could return better, most could volley better, than the current lads
 

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It's quite obvious. Contrary to what everyone else has been saying, Fed's generation was a pretty strong era.
 
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You say "experience". That's not convincing to me. For comparison let's take players from two previous generations and check when they first reached Wimbledon QF (or better!):

Federer – 20
Nadal – 20
Djokovic – 20
Baghdatis – 20
Roddick – 20
Nalbandian – 20

Hewitt – 21
Murray – 21
Gasquet – 21

Berdych – 22

Dimitrov – 23
Raonic – 23

del Potro – 24

Tsonga – 25

So you can see it's not just the BIG3...
Were these players more experienced at the same age? Why?
The main difference I see is that tennis is more fully accepted as a power baseline game and is more widely taught that way so some of the more useful grass-friendly skills are further down the list of things to practice.

Most of the guys you mention who had more success early at Wimbledon could at least slice a decent backhand for that matter. And of course you listed 6 former #1 players so there's a general quality level there too.

One would imagine that Tsitsipas and Medvedev have the most room to cause trouble of the top younger guys but I would also think that Berrettini should be able to do damage on grass
 

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OK, here's another one.

I'd like to hear MTF's opinion on: why do young players suck so much on grass?

I've checked all TOP50 players below 25 years of age and they have combined 0 (zero) quarter finals appearances at Wimbledon. Please see the list below:

Rank/ Name/ Best Wimbledon Result

(4) Medvedev (24yo) – R3
(6) Tsitsipas (22yo) – R4
(7) Medvedev (23yo) – R4
(8) Rublev (23yo) – R2
(10) Berrettini (24yo) – R4
(12) Shapovalov (21yo) – R2
(20) Khachanov (24yo) – R4
(21) Auger-Aliassime (20yo) – R3
(22) Garin (24yo) – R1
(23) de Minaur (21yo) – R3
(24) Coric (24yo) – R2
(27) Ruud (21yo) – R1
(29) Fritz (23yo) – R2
(30) Humbert (22yo) – R4
(34) Hurkacz (23yo) – R3
(37) Sinner (19yo) – Q1
(39) Opelka (23yo) – R3
(44) Kecmanovic (21yo) – R2
(50) Bublik (23yo) – R1

Let's have some serious discussion and try to understand - what's the problem there.
Half the players you listed played Wimbledon once or twice in their career and were robbed of Wimbledon in 2020. Tsitsipas, Zverev, Berrettini, Khachanov, Humbert all reached R4 -- some of them could have very well reached QF this year.
Then you have Tomic reaching QF at the age of 18, Kyrgios at 19, Pouille at 22.
 

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Speculation here… but I think it has something to with the fact that younger players are used to taking pretty big swings which generally works OK on clay and slower hard courts. However, on grass, quite often you just don’t have time for it so they are easily taken out of their comfort zones.

Federer and Djokovic, obviously the two most successful on grass of this era, have relatively compact swings, at least compared to most of the guys on the OP list.
(Nadal not so much but since he’s an alien we won’t count him.)
 

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Least practiced surface for kids/teens, serve heavy and serve is the aspect taking most time to develop and find consistency.
 
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Not a single on point answer except lucas4_ever who noticed a glaring hole.

JediFed managed worst comment.
 
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justice for all
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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Half the players you listed played Wimbledon once or twice in their career and were robbed of Wimbledon in 2020. Tsitsipas, Zverev, Berrettini, Khachanov, Humbert all reached R4 -- some of them could have very well reached QF this year.
Then you have Tomic reaching QF at the age of 18, Kyrgios at 19, Pouille at 22.
Yeah, the Wimbledon cancellation this year is a factor, you are right. But still not enough of the factor to explain the difference in grass achievements between these generations.

Tomic and Kyrgios runs were spectacular but one could argue they were a bit fluke - none of them has done anything better in slams ever since these runs (Kyrgios only reached one more QF in AO, Tomic obviously none). All 3 of them are currently not great prospects in terms of doing much damage in the slams. And all 3 of them are past 25 now.
 

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Cause grass suits players that are talented aggressive shotmakers with a strong serve and net game (well it should). The next gen have good serves but none of the other things I listed. Berrettini is an exception and his game is very suited for grass and even with his obvious limitations, he should at least be making it to the QF if not SF sometimes. Considering the “grass” that Wimbledon currently uses, it wouldn’t surprise me to see someone like Coric win it 😂.
 

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There's not so much tennis played on grass compared to other surfaces. Plus most young players are getting prepared in similar academies or places, where grass isn't a priority to say the least. Still, I think Berrettini has a good grass game, won a title in Stuttgart (if I'm not mistaken) and his style suits that surface. Yea, he got destroyed by Federer, but overall I think he can do well on grass in the future. Bublik should be able to have decent results too, given he's not fuckin around too much. For the rest I'm not sure, maybe a few could make a run every now and then, but it's never going to be their priority.
 

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They consider it an anomaly which doesn't have much relevance to the rest of the year. They're not into the historic significance of it. They don't have the powers of concentration required to deal with something different. And they mug up a lot of other tournaments anyway.
 

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The serving component is big but what separates the good from the best is obviously ROS & net game (involving natural movement on surface) which many NxtGen have yet to master.
 

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The bigger question is, how many of them have reached multiple QFs or better in any slam, let alone WB? Don't think many have reached too many QFs. Zverev reached a couple this year only. Meddy has only one, I think (last year's USO F). Tsitsipas has two?

The biggest and the most glaring anomaly is the one player you left out because he doesn't belong to this age group - Dominic Thiem. But he too broke through outside RG only this year, and there was no WB this year. Next year will be the one to note.
 

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When is the last time any of you guys saw a grass court in your neighborhood? As tennis has become more globalized more and more guys who get good come from countries without access to grass courts.
 

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When is the last time any of you guys saw a grass court in your neighborhood? As tennis has become more globalized more and more guys who get good come from countries without access to grass courts.
Sure but how many grass courts do you think there were in California for Sampras, Mallorca for Nadal or Serbia for Novak? Even in tennis rich countries, grass is a rare commodity.

Modern grass courts have always been in short supply and the top players are still mostly from Europe and the Americas so to the extent the thesis holds that the younger players are especially worse on grass, there's probably more to it than that like some of the changes in the game over time and the focus on power baseline tennis.

I do think that we have to give them a bit more time (we missed this past year's shot at it) and I do think the players take a bit longer generally to mature now in general as well given the physicality of modern tennis.
 
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