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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Rafa is the best ever on clay, easy. However he is nowhere near best ever due to his relatively poor other slam totals.

Outside the French, Novak has won MORE slams than Rafa. My question is, who by the end of their careers will have won more non french open titles...

Surely if it is Novak then he has an argument that he was a better OVERALL player than Rafa. Rafa won ONE more Wimby and US than Novak but Novak has 3 more AO than Rafa.

AND Novak has won multiple ATP Year end championships which Rafa has NEVER won, although Rafa has won an Olympic gold.

If Novak does finish with more, does that then make him the better overall player...
 

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Pretty obvious question, Djokovic already have more Slams outside of RG and he's one year younger.
 

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Rafa is the best ever on clay, easy. However he is nowhere near best ever due to his relatively poor other slam totals.

Outside the French, Novak has won MORE slams than Rafa. My question is, who by the end of their careers will have won more non french open titles...

Surely if it is Novak then he has an argument that he was a better OVERALL player than Rafa. Rafa won ONE more Wimby and US than Novak but Novak has 3 more AO than Rafa.

AND Novak has won multiple ATP Year end championships which Rafa has NEVER won, although Rafa has won an Olympic gold.

If Novak does finish with more, does that then make him the better overall player...
No. Rafa has 14, Novak has 6 at the moment. There's no comparison.
 

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Does it hurt that everyone has said Novak...
It's more that Novak is overrated. Outside of Australia, he's won 2 Slams. Made and lost numerous finals. Rafa has 5 outside of Paris. Multiple US and Wimbledon titles. What is interesting is that each's greatest Slam is the other's weakest.
 

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Well obviously nole unless flukedal gets lucky as usual
 

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Does it hurt that everyone has said Novak...
He's saying 'mods lol' because you're asking a question with a pretty much no-brain, obvious answer.

Cmon man, be real for two flipping moments. Novak Djokovic is one of the best movers on a hard-court in the open-era, he is the best returner the game has ever seen and quite possibly the best defender, unless ofcourse you consider standing 5 meters behind the baseline moonballing as defensive skill.

His entire game suits hard-courts and two of the grand-slams on tour are hard-courts, so the probability of him ending with less grand-slams in his career than Rafa outside of the french open is low. If it does happen, then it will be down to how crap he's been mentally in finals. He never deserved to lose the US Open 2013 final and did, the way he played on the break-points for double breaks and then imploded thereafter he didn't take them, was not only pathetic but a disgrace for a multiple grand-slam champion.
 

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Of course Djokovic is a better player out of clay than Nadal, but Nadal is a very good player out of clay as well (and I know that you are not telling the opposite). However, there is a false statement: you are talking about the better player in overall and to talk about the better player in overall you exclude clay of the debate. Why not doing the same with hard courts or plexicushion courts, or even indoor courts (in fact they are hard courts) instead of clay courts? Counting the overall stats of a player without counting clay is not valid. To talk about an overall performance of a player in all the surfaces you have to include clay, you can't exclude it. And if you do that you can't talk about a better player in overall, only about a better player out of clay. Djokovic is a better player out of clay but Nadal is a better player out of hard courts, out of indoor courts, out of plexicushion and out of grass with the same logic. But anway I know what were you talking about and what were you trying to say, but I think you didn't specify it very well.

Ah, I think that Djokovic will end with more out of clay Slams than Nadal, in fact he already has more out of clay Slams than Nadal (6 vs 5) and I think that that trend will be followed in the future.
 

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Of course Djokovic is a better player out of clay than Nadal, but Nadal is a very good player out of clay as well (and I know that you are not telling the opposite). However, there is a false statement: you are talking about the better player in overall and to talk about the better player in overall you exclude clay of the debate. Why not doing the same with hard courts or plexicushion courts, or even indoor courts (in fact they are hard courts) instead of clay courts? Counting the overall stats of a player without counting clay is not valid. To talk about an overall performance of a player in all the surfaces you have to include clay, you can't exclude it. And if you do that you can't talk about a better player in overall, only about a better player out of clay. Djokovic is a better player out of clay but Nadal is a better player out of hard courts, out of indoor courts, out of plexicushion and out of grass with the same logic. But anway I know what were you talking about and what were you trying to say, but I think you didn't specify it very well.

Ah, I think that Djokovic will end with more out of clay Slams than Nadal, in fact he already has more out of clay Slams than Nadal (6 vs 5) and I think that that trend will be followed in the future.
All good points.

First proper, genuine Nadal fan I've seen in a while.

Including Clay makes how good they are as players over the course of their career thus far very close. Nadal has dominated on his favourite clay much more than Djokovic has on his favourite hard-court. Plexcushion Djokovic 4 - European Clay 9. However, Nole does have multiple world tour finals and like you said, indoor-hardcourts are much worth noting interms of assessing the over-all completeness of a player and Nadal has been pretty mediocre on that surface throughout his career, with a mere one tour title on it to his name.
 
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