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Which one of the Big 3 spoiled it more for the other 2?

  • Federer

    Votes: 2 5.7%
  • Nadal

    Votes: 18 51.4%
  • Djokovic

    Votes: 15 42.9%

  • Total voters
    35
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I haven't seen this question posted before, so I thought I might make a poll about it.

Which one of the Big 3 do you think prevented the other 2 from achieving more in their careers? I.e. if one of them didn't exist, how much more impressive would the remaining 2 careers look like?

An argument can be made for and against all 3:

- Federer has the most Slam titles, so there would be more glory to go around for Rafole. Especially at Wimbledon. OTOH, quite a few of those titles did not have Rafole in their path. Also, Federer has a negative H2H against both Rafa and Nole.

- Nadal has an absolute stronghold at FO, beating Djokerer several times there. Djokerer would easily have 7-8 more FO titles, making for very impressive and balanced overall slam records on all three surfaces. Nadal has a positive H2H at Slams against both Federer and Nole. OTOH, outside FO and clay there's not much where Rafa prevented Djokerer from winning.

- Nole is the natural "spoiler" that came late to the already established Fedal dominance. He has a positive H2H against both. He seemed to somehow always draw Nadal in his half at FO and Federer in his half at hard surface slams. OTOH, Nole has the least number of Slam titles, so the increase in Fedal Slam titles wouldn't be as dramatic without Nole.

Obiously, Slams are most important, but other tournaments, such as Masters and ATP Finals should count as well.

Please, no tard comments. I'm genuinely interested in an answer to this. I also don't think that your favourite getting more or less votes means anything in terms of how impressive his career is right now.
 

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I think its Nole just because he reached his prime after the other two and threatened them on all 4 surfaces. Fedal almost had like a treaty agreement that Rafa could win the slow courts and Fed could win the fast (Obviously some exceptions W 08 and FO 9 etc.) and then Djokovic came in and tried to win both. Obviously though if you remove any one of them the other two would have an even more ridiculous slam count.
 

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In Short:



Details:

 
Here are the Grand Slam Finals Lost stats taken from another post I made in the US Open discussion thread.
Obviously there are other tournaments, but most would agree these are the most important.
Also, these players stopped each other in earlier rounds, but one cannot say that other players may not have also beaten them, so finals are the best measure we have.


Federer GS Finals Record: 20-10 (AO: 6-1, RG: 1-4, WC: 8-3, USO: 5-2)

Federer Finals lost - 10
6 vs. Nadal (4-RG, 1-Wimbledon, 1-AO)
3 vs. Djokovic (2-Wimbledon, 1-USO)

1 vs. Del Potro (1-USO)

Nadal certainly did the job on his formidable fortress of clay at Roland Garros to stop under 30 year old Federer from winning 4 additional majors there. Was RG Federer's weakest major? Maybe, but he reached 5 finals, only Nadal was able to make him seem weak there. As most know, Nadal also stopped Federer in the 2008 Wimbledon final, and the 2009 AO final

Djokovic also stopped Federer from winning a major title 3 times after Federer turned 32 but still obviously playing well enough to reach the final on his favored surfaces.
And Del Potro was the only other man to stop Federer from winning a major final in the 2009 US Open.
-----------


----------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at the same in terms of Nadal's finals lost.

Nadal GS Finals Record: 17-7 (AO: 1-3, RG: 11-0, WC: 2-3, USO: 3-1)

Nadal Finals lost - 7
3 vs. Federer (1-AO, 2-Wimbledon)
3 vs. Djokovic (1-AO, 1-Wimbledon, 1-USO)

1 vs. Wawrinka (1-AO)

So Federer stopped Nadal twice at Wimbledon, and as most know the 2017 Australian Open.

Djokovic stopped Nadal 3 times in succession at 2011 Wimbledon and US Open, followed by the marathon 2012 Australian Open.

Like Federer, Nadal was only defeated by one other player, but his spoiler was Stan Wawrinka at the 2014 Australian Open.
--------------------------------


----------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at the same in terms of Djokovic's finals.

Djokovic GS Finals Record: 13-9 (AO: 6-0, RG: 1-3, WC: 4-1, USO: 2-5)

Djokovic Finals lost - 9
4 vs. Nadal (2-RG, 2-USO)

2 vs. Murray (1-Wimbledon, 1-USO)
2 vs. Wawrinka (1-RG, 1 USO)

1 vs. Federer (1-USO)

So Nadal stopped Djokovic twice at his favored Roland Garros, and twice at the US Open.

But Andy Murray stopped Djokovic 2 times. once at the 2012 US Open, and then the 2013 Wimbledon.
Stan Wawrinka stopped Djokovic at the 2015 Roland Garros and then at the 2016 US Open.

Federer stopped Djokovic in a final just once, at the 2007 US Open.
--------------------------------

Two stopping One

Nadal & Djokovic stopped Federer 9 times in Finals

Federer & Djokovic stopped Nadal 6 times in Finals

Nadal & Federer stopped Djokovic 5 times in Finals

Wawrinka and Murray combined to stop Djokovic 4 Times in Finals.

Wawrinka stopped Nadal 1 time and Delpo stopped Federer 1 time.

-------------------

One stopping Two

Nadal stopped Federer & Djokovic 10 times in finals

Djokovic stopped Federer & Nadal 6 times in finals.

Federer stopped Nadal & Djokovic 4 times in finals.

Wawrinka stopped Nadal & Djokovic 3 times in finals.



Respectfully,
masterclass
 

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In Short:



Details:

 
Here are the Grand Slam Finals Lost stats taken from another post I made in the US Open discussion thread.
Obviously there are other tournaments, but most would agree these are the most important.
Also, these players stopped each other in earlier rounds, but one cannot say that other players may not have also beaten them, so finals are the best measure we have.


Federer GS Finals Record: 20-10 (AO: 6-1, RG: 1-4, WC: 8-3, USO: 5-2)

Federer Finals lost - 10
6 vs. Nadal (4-RG, 1-Wimbledon, 1-AO)
3 vs. Djokovic (2-Wimbledon, 1-USO)

1 vs. Del Potro (1-USO)

Nadal certainly did the job on his formidable fortress of clay at Roland Garros to stop under 30 year old Federer from winning 4 additional majors there. Was RG Federer's weakest major? Maybe, but he reached 5 finals, only Nadal was able to make him seem weak there. As most know, Nadal also stopped Federer in the 2008 Wimbledon final, and the 2009 AO final

Djokovic also stopped Federer from winning a major title 3 times after Federer turned 32 but still obviously playing well enough to reach the final on his favored surfaces.
And Del Potro was the only other man to stop Federer from winning a major final in the 2009 US Open.
-----------


----------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at the same in terms of Nadal's finals lost.

Nadal GS Finals Record: 17-7 (AO: 1-3, RG: 11-0, WC: 2-3, USO: 3-1)

Nadal Finals lost - 7
3 vs. Federer (1-AO, 2-Wimbledon)
3 vs. Djokovic (1-AO, 1-Wimbledon, 1-USO)

1 vs. Wawrinka (1-AO)

So Federer stopped Nadal twice at Wimbledon, and as most know the 2017 Australian Open.

Djokovic stopped Nadal 3 times in succession at 2011 Wimbledon and US Open, followed by the marathon 2012 Australian Open.

Like Federer, Nadal was only defeated by one other player, but his spoiler was Stan Wawrinka at the 2014 Australian Open.
--------------------------------


----------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at the same in terms of Djokovic's finals.

Djokovic GS Finals Record: 13-9 (AO: 6-0, RG: 1-3, WC: 4-1, USO: 2-5)

Djokovic Finals lost - 9
4 vs. Nadal (2-RG, 2-USO)

2 vs. Murray (1-Wimbledon, 1-USO)
2 vs. Wawrinka (1-RG, 1 USO)

1 vs. Federer (1-USO)

So Nadal stopped Djokovic twice at his favored Roland Garros, and twice at the US Open.

But Andy Murray stopped Djokovic 2 times. once at the 2012 US Open, and then the 2013 Wimbledon.
Stan Wawrinka stopped Djokovic at the 2015 Roland Garros and then at the 2016 US Open.

Federer stopped Djokovic in a final just once, at the 2007 US Open.
--------------------------------



Nadal & Djokovic stopped Federer 9 times in Finals

Federer & Djokovic stopped Nadal 6 times in Finals

Nadal & Federer stopped Djokovic 5 times in Finals

Wawrinka and Murray combined to stop Djokovic 4 Times in Finals.

Wawrinka stopped Nadal 1 time and Delpo stopped Federer 1 time.


Respectfully,
masterclass
Far away from that.
Novak and Rafa have positive H2H Vs Federer and most importantly positive H2H Vs Federer in grand slam matches.
 

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Far away from that.
Novak and Rafa have positive H2H Vs Federer and most importantly positive H2H Vs Federer in grand slam matches.
It's exactly this.

Look and read again.

Here, I'll extract thesummary part from the Spoiler...

Two stopping One

Nadal & Djokovic stopped Federer 9 times in Finals

Federer & Djokovic stopped Nadal 6 times in Finals

Nadal & Federer stopped Djokovic 5 times in Finals

Wawrinka and Murray combined to stop Djokovic 4 Times in Finals.

Wawrinka stopped Nadal 1 time and Delpo stopped Federer 1 time.

-------------------

One stopping Two

Nadal stopped Federer & Djokovic 10 times in finals

Djokovic stopped Federer & Nadal 6 times in finals.

Federer stopped Nadal & Djokovic 4 times in finals.

Wawrinka stopped Nadal & Djokovic 3 times in finals.



Respectfully,
masterclass
 

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Obviously Nadal. He stopped Federer and Djokovic time and time again at RG. Without Nadal each of them would likely have 5 RG plus a couple more of the non-RG slams.

Nadal however was unbeatable at RG so having to play Federer and Djokovic there didn’t hurt him at all, and at the other three slams on average he lost a lot earlier than Federer or Djokovic, and so he didn’t get beat up too bad by them there either.
 

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Excellent question! So interesting ...

I didn't vote because I don't think there's a single answer.

I see it like this:
Rafa spoiled it for Fed, then Djok spoiled it for Rafa and Fed.

Fed didn't "spoil" it for either, he forced them to be that good so they could beat him.
I guess Fed spoiled it just a little for Rafa in 2017. But minute compared to what Rafa denied Fed.

And they all spoiled it for Murray. lol

I guess the answer is Djok, but unless he can sustain for a few years, he will not match the records of the other two. Slams, anyway.
 

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In Short:



Details:

 
Here are the Grand Slam Finals Lost stats taken from another post I made in the US Open discussion thread.
Obviously there are other tournaments, but most would agree these are the most important.
Also, these players stopped each other in earlier rounds, but one cannot say that other players may not have also beaten them, so finals are the best measure we have.


Federer GS Finals Record: 20-10 (AO: 6-1, RG: 1-4, WC: 8-3, USO: 5-2)

Federer Finals lost - 10
6 vs. Nadal (4-RG, 1-Wimbledon, 1-AO)
3 vs. Djokovic (2-Wimbledon, 1-USO)

1 vs. Del Potro (1-USO)

Nadal certainly did the job on his formidable fortress of clay at Roland Garros to stop under 30 year old Federer from winning 4 additional majors there. Was RG Federer's weakest major? Maybe, but he reached 5 finals, only Nadal was able to make him seem weak there. As most know, Nadal also stopped Federer in the 2008 Wimbledon final, and the 2009 AO final

Djokovic also stopped Federer from winning a major title 3 times after Federer turned 32 but still obviously playing well enough to reach the final on his favored surfaces.
And Del Potro was the only other man to stop Federer from winning a major final in the 2009 US Open.
-----------


----------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at the same in terms of Nadal's finals lost.

Nadal GS Finals Record: 17-7 (AO: 1-3, RG: 11-0, WC: 2-3, USO: 3-1)

Nadal Finals lost - 7
3 vs. Federer (1-AO, 2-Wimbledon)
3 vs. Djokovic (1-AO, 1-Wimbledon, 1-USO)

1 vs. Wawrinka (1-AO)

So Federer stopped Nadal twice at Wimbledon, and as most know the 2017 Australian Open.

Djokovic stopped Nadal 3 times in succession at 2011 Wimbledon and US Open, followed by the marathon 2012 Australian Open.

Like Federer, Nadal was only defeated by one other player, but his spoiler was Stan Wawrinka at the 2014 Australian Open.
--------------------------------


----------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at the same in terms of Djokovic's finals.

Djokovic GS Finals Record: 13-9 (AO: 6-0, RG: 1-3, WC: 4-1, USO: 2-5)

Djokovic Finals lost - 9
4 vs. Nadal (2-RG, 2-USO)

2 vs. Murray (1-Wimbledon, 1-USO)
2 vs. Wawrinka (1-RG, 1 USO)

1 vs. Federer (1-USO)

So Nadal stopped Djokovic twice at his favored Roland Garros, and twice at the US Open.

But Andy Murray stopped Djokovic 2 times. once at the 2012 US Open, and then the 2013 Wimbledon.
Stan Wawrinka stopped Djokovic at the 2015 Roland Garros and then at the 2016 US Open.

Federer stopped Djokovic in a final just once, at the 2007 US Open.
--------------------------------

Two stopping One

Nadal & Djokovic stopped Federer 9 times in Finals

Federer & Djokovic stopped Nadal 6 times in Finals

Nadal & Federer stopped Djokovic 5 times in Finals

Wawrinka and Murray combined to stop Djokovic 4 Times in Finals.

Wawrinka stopped Nadal 1 time and Delpo stopped Federer 1 time.

-------------------

One stopping Two

Nadal stopped Federer & Djokovic 9 times in finals

Djokovic stopped Federer & Nadal 6 times in finals.

Federer stopped Nadal & Djokovic 4 times in finals.

Wawrinka stopped Nadal & Djokovic 3 times in finals.



Respectfully,
masterclass
Thanks for the great extract.
So to take away a conclusion from "one stopping two" which is the definitive measure of this question (at least in the stats you present) Nadal is the great spoiler.
Do you agree?
 

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Great numbers from Masterclass and I love you use my avatar as a picture.

I think it is not just about the numbers, it it also about spoiling what exactly - especially in terms of making tennis history?

The Top three tennis history party spoiling IMO:

1) Nadal spoiled Federer from winning the CYGS in 2006 and 2007 during Federer's peak. That is the biggest historical spoil by far.

2) Djokovic's sudden and unexpected peak in 2011, spoiled Nadal for an era of GOAT dominance. In december 2010 after Nadal's 3 GS wins during that year most experts predicted that the new GOAT and a Nadal dominant era had arrived. No one saw the Djoker arriving, he was beaten by Nadal both at WTF and US Open rather easily in late 2010.

3) Djokovic's wins over Federer in Wimbledon 2014 and 2015 spoiled Federer's historic Wimbledon La Decima and in 2015 spoiled a historic 6th US Open title.

Thus, the top 2 spoilers are Nadal and Djokovic.
 

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It's the way they lost, which is telling.

I feel like Nole and Fed lost in 4 or even 3 sets a lot to each other and Nadal...

where as I bet that Nadal took it to 5 sets in MOST of his losses, on pure resilience (Nadal lost 4/8 matches to Djokerer in 5 sets).

Federer hardly ever took Nadal the distance, and lost in straight sets 3 times to Djokovic ('08 AO, '11 AO, '12 FO), not close enough.

Technically Djokovic denied Federer more than Nadal at slams, but he denied Nadal in more cruel fashion. Nadal's level was more up to par, and given the score would have beaten a greater amount of hypothetical opposition than Federer.
 

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Nadal and Djokovic are of the same generation. Without them Federer would have wiped the floor with their generation along with the new so called useless generation. Federer's career has spanned the Sampras/Agassi generation (which was on its way out), his own with the likes of Hewitt/Roddick/Safin, the Djokovic/Nadal/Murray one and now the Chung/Zverev/Coric generation. The likes of Raonic, Nishikori, Grigor etc are of the Djokovic/Nadal generation as they suck, and are not that much younger than Nadal/Djokovic.

Only the Djokovic/Nadal generation has managed to keep Federer in check, amazing when you think about it.
 

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Thanks for the great extract.
So to take away a conclusion from "one stopping two" which is the definitive measure of this question (at least in the stats you present) Nadal is the great spoiler.
Do you agree?
Yes in terms of slam finals. But also look at Radish's post above for context.

It is important to put this spoiler stuff into context, as I also do in this post in the US Open discussion thread.

Interestingly, all of Rafa's finals wins over Federer came before Roger turned 30, and all of Novak's finals wins over Federer came after Roger was 32.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

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Great numbers from Masterclass and I love you use my avatar as a picture.

I think it is not just about the numbers, it it also about spoiling what exactly - especially in terms of making tennis history?

The Top three tennis history party spoiling IMO:

1) Nadal spoiled Federer from winning the CYGS in 2006 and 2007 during Federer's peak. That is the biggest historical spoil by far.

2) Djokovic's sudden and unexpected peak in 2011, spoiled Nadal for an era of GOAT dominance. In december 2010 after Nadal's 3 GS wins during that year most experts predicted that the new GOAT and a Nadal dominant era had arrived. No one saw the Djoker arriving, he was beaten by Nadal both at WTF and US Open rather easily in late 2010.

3) Djokovic's wins over Federer in Wimbledon 2014 and 2015 spoiled Federer's historic Wimbledon La Decima and in 2015 spoiled a historic 6th US Open title.

Thus, the top 2 spoilers are Nadal and Djokovic.
Avatar - Yes, this is a great cartoon, both of them together trying to topple Federer, but they have yet to do it. The old man is still standing, despite their best efforts.

Spoiling - Yes, and believe it or not, I believe Wawrinka to be a big spoiler too. I'm not sure which player he hurt more, even though he stopped Nole in 2 majors and Rafa in 1. Maybe Rafa.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

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It's the way they lost, which is telling.

I feel like Nole and Fed lost in 4 or even 3 sets a lot to each other and Nadal...

where as I bet that Nadal took it to 5 sets in MOST of his losses, on pure resilience (Nadal lost 4/8 matches to Djokerer in 5 sets).

Federer hardly ever took Nadal the distance, and lost in straight sets 3 times to Djokovic ('08 AO, '11 AO, '12 FO), not close enough.

Technically Djokovic denied Federer more than Nadal at slams, but he denied Nadal in more cruel fashion. Nadal's level was more up to par, and given the score would have beaten a greater amount of hypothetical opposition than Federer.
The "cruelty" of spoiling is another interesting factor.

Some top cruelty hits - I am sure there are others:

1. Nadals victory over Federer in Rome 2006. Federer will plausibly never win this tournament.
2. Nadals's victory over Djokovic in RG SF 2013.
3. Nadal's victory in Wimbledon 2008. Cruel to Federer's consecutive record and he came so close.
4. Nadals's victory at AO 2009. Watch Federer at the prize ceremony.
5. Djokovic victory at AO 2012. Nadal will most likely never win the so-called DCGS after choking in the 5th.
6. Djokovic victory at Wimbledon SF 2018. Nadal would have been an amazing 3 times Wimbledon champion like McEnroe & Boris Becker. Now it will never happen by all tennis odds.
7. Federer's victory at AO 2017. A medical time-out with an injured Federer changed the tennis Slam count forever.
... I am sure there are more.
 

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The "cruelty" of spoiling is another interesting factor.

Some top cruelty hits - I am sure there are others:

1. Nadals victory over Federer in Rome 2006. Federer will plausibly never win this tournament.
2. Nadals's victory over Djokovic in RG SF 2013.
3. Nadal's victory in Wimbledon 2008. Cruel to Federer's consecutive record and he came so close.
4. Nadals's victory at AO 2009. Watch Federer at the prize ceremony.
5. Djokovic victory at AO 2012. Nadal will most likely never win the so-called DCGS after choking in the 5th.
6. Djokovic victory at Wimbledon SF 2018. Nadal would have been an amazing 3 times Wimbledon champion like McEnroe & Boris Becker. Now it will never happen by all tennis odds.
7. Federer's victory at AO 2017. A medical time-out with an injured Federer changed the tennis Slam count forever.
... I am sure there are more.
No way '08 WB is as cruel as the rest. He trailed the whole match and only broke once, never got that close to actually winning.

In the end, Rome is minimal compared to the rest. Doesn't even compare in terms of cruelty.

'17 AO + '18 WB are top 2 cruelty, because the feeling of injustice, being robbed. Fighting outlier circumstances and still going nigh dead even.
 

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No way '08 WB is as cruel as the rest. He trailed the whole match and only broke once, never got that close to actually winning.

In the end, Rome is minimal compared to the rest. Doesn't even compare in terms of cruelty.

'17 AO + '18 WB are top 2 cruelty, because the feeling of injustice, being robbed. Fighting outlier circumstances and still going nigh dead even.
I take your points. Rome is not a GS, but the defeat was cruel.

17AO and 18WB were cruel to Nadal - and ultimately to his resume - he could easily have won both matches if not for the medical time out and the closed roof. It was that close.

Wimbledon 2008 was still cruel if you look at the match in context. Federer was demolished by Nadal at FO and he publicly stated is was an embarrassment. Federer reached the Wimbledon final without dropping a set in superior shape. And then to loose in his back yard to the clay warrior after almost nailing the comeback. That was cruel. Cruel in the sense of change of guard. That hurts if you feel you are the best. To be beaten on your holy grass to a "clay court specialist".
 

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The clear and only answer to your question is Rafael


H2H in slams

Nadal Djokovic 9-5
Nadal Federer 9-3
Djokovic Federer 9-6


Nadal has denied 9 slams to Djokovic and 9 slams to Federer. Total 18 spoiled by him
Djokovic has denied 9 slams to Federer and 5 slams to Nadal. Total 14 spoiled by him
Federer has denied 6 slams to Djokovic and 3 slams to Nadal. Total 9 spoiled by him

So Nadal the biggest spoiler for the other two.


OTOH,

Federer would have 9 more slams if Nadal was not there (29 slams today), 9 more slams if Djokovic was not there (29 slams today) and 18 more slams if both were not there (38 slams today)

Djokovic would have 9 more slams if Nadal was not there (22 slams today), 6 more slams if Federer was not there (19 slams today) and 15 more slams if both were not there (28 slams today)


Nadal would have 3 more slams if Federer was not there (20 slams today), 5 more slams if Djokovic was not there (22 slams today) and 8 more slams if both were not there (25 slams today)
 

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In terms of Nadal chasing Federer's 20 slam record, Djokovic back in form is good news for Nadal, bad news for Federer.
Nadal is the likely winner over Djokovic at the US Open and Roland Garros, whereas Federer is not the likely winner over Djokovic at any of the slams.
In fact even at the AO, Nadal has a better chance of beating Djokovic than Federer has, considering the only Nadal-Djokovic AO match went 6 hours....
 

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In terms of Nadal chasing Federer's 20 slam record, Djokovic back in form is good news for Nadal, bad news for Federer.
Nadal is the likely winner over Djokovic at the US Open and Roland Garros, whereas Federer is not the likely winner over Djokovic at any of the slams.
In fact even at the AO, Nadal has a better chance of beating Djokovic than Federer has, considering the only Nadal-Djokovic AO match went 6 hours....
Nadal is the favorite at the US Open every year over Djokovic. I don’t think so.
 
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