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Discussion Starter #1
As things currently stand, where would you put Thiem among the all-time greats on clay? Top 30? Top 20? Or higher?

His notable accomplishments obviously include 2 (consecutive) RG finals, 4 (consecutive) RG semi-finals, a Barcelona title, 4 wins against Nadal on clay, 2 wins against Djokovic at RG, etc. Although he doesn't have a clay M1000 to his name, I think the case could be made for him to already be a greater clay court player than Andy Murray (and I say that as a Brit and a Murray fan).

I would also be interested to know where people think Thiem might place among the all-time greats on clay at the end of his career. Could he, for example, eclipse any of Wawrinka, Federer or Djokovic (or all 3) in terms of clay court achievements? He is still only 25 and probably has many more good years left in him.
 

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I can speak about this generation which include retired/semi retired players such as Soderling and Ferrer.

I would put them in this order

1) Nadal
2) Djokovic (2008+)/Fed (2005-2011)/Thiem (2018/2019)/PEakwrinka (2017)
3) Clayray (2016-2017)/ Soderking (2009/2010)
4) Ferrer
5)Fognini (when he rarely peaks)
 

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Well, let's put it this way: he hasn't won anything big on clay, at all.

So how could we even consider him an all-time great? He's not even in the Top 40.

Let him win a Rome, Madrid or Roland Garros, then we'll see.

But in terms of his actual level, and what he's capable of, I would rank him really high, surely in the top 10 all-time, - maybe even top 5.
So, his talent is top 10 all-time, but achievement-wise, he's not even in the conversation YET (this will surely change).
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I can speak about this generation which include retired/semi retired players such as Soderling and Ferrer.

I would put them in this order

1) Nadal
2) Djokovic/Fed/Thiem/PEakwrinka
3) Clayray/ Soderking
4) Ferrer
5)Fognini (when he rarely peaks)
Good list. Out of interest, why Fognini over Zverev? Just thinking Zverev has a clay M1000, 3 clay M1000 finals and 2 RG QFs. Then again, Fognini has 3 wins over Nadal on clay in addition to a clay M1000.
 

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Good list. Out of interest, why Fognini over Zverev? Just thinking Zverev has a clay M1000, 3 clay M1000 finals and 2 RG QFs. Then again, Fognini has 3 wins over Nadal on clay in addition to a clay M1000.
I was talking about a mix of peak level and consistence... Zverev is "greater" and more consistent, but I think on a given mach or even set, Fognini can be more dangerous for Nadal and other guys at the very top..
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Well, let's put it this way: he hasn't won anything big on clay, at all.

So how could we even consider him an all-time great? He's not even in the Top 40.

Let him win a Rome, Madrid or Roland Garros, then we'll see.

But in terms of his actual level, and what he's capable of, I would rank him really high, surely in the top 10 all-time, - maybe even top 5.
So, his talent is top 10 all-time, but achievement-wise, he's not even in the conversation YET (this will surely change).
A very constructive and balanced reply. I commend you on this, and agree with the majority of your points. The only thing I would contest is whether the fact that he is playing in the Big 3 era should be factored in. Then again, we get into potentially murky territory when it comes to that side of things.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Good list. Out of interest, why Fognini over Zverev? Just thinking Zverev has a clay M1000, 3 clay M1000 finals and 2 RG QFs. Then again, Fognini has 3 wins over Nadal on clay in addition to a clay M1000.
I was talking about a mix of peak level and consistence... Zverev is "greater" and more consistent, but I think on a given mach or even set, Fognini can be more dangerous for Nadal and other guys at the very top..
Agreed!
 

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From the Open Era

Rafael Nadal
Björn Borg
Mats Wilander
Ivan Lendl
Gustavo Kurten
Roger Federer
Novak Djokovic

Are all way way ahead of Thiem.

There is a 2nd bracket of players that include the likes of Agassi, Change, Ferrer, Soderling and Ferrero that are above Thiem still.

Those are the ones I can remember of the top of my head.
 

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What about Courier and Muster? Where would they rank on your list?

Regards,

-David

From the Open Era

Rafael Nadal
Björn Borg
Mats Wilander
Ivan Lendl
Gustavo Kurten
Roger Federer
Novak Djokovic

Are all way way ahead of Thiem.

There is a 2nd bracket of players that include the likes of Agassi, Change, Ferrer, Soderling and Ferrero that are above Thiem still.

Those are the ones I can remember of the top of my head.
 

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I don't think he's better than Clayray...yet, or even Wawrinka. Let's wait until he wins RG and some clay masters, which he most likely will do.
 

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From the Open Era

Rafael Nadal
Björn Borg
Mats Wilander
Ivan Lendl
Gustavo Kurten
Roger Federer
Novak Djokovic

Are all way way ahead of Thiem.

There is a 2nd bracket of players that include the likes of Agassi, Change, Ferrer, Soderling and Ferrero that are above Thiem still.

Those are the ones I can remember of the top of my head.
Don't forget Sergi Bruguera too. :smile2:
 

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Well if he wins tomorrow he did what no one else could do
 

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Good list. Out of interest, why Fognini over Zverev? Just thinking Zverev has a clay M1000, 3 clay M1000 finals and 2 RG QFs. Then again, Fognini has 3 wins over Nadal on clay in addition to a clay M1000.
2 M1000 titles, Rome and Madrid and I agree. When push came to shove, Zverev beat Fognini at RG. Sure, Fognini beat him in MC, but RG is the more important tournament. And Zverev is a lot younger so there's far more potential for him to achieve a lot more on clay.

Maybe I'm just more of a results oriented guy moreso than potential oriented guy.

As far as Thiem, it's gonna depend. I honestly don't see him as better than peak Federer right now. He's top 10 right now...we'll see how many RG he can actually win.
 

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From the Open Era

Rafael Nadal
Björn Borg
Mats Wilander
Ivan Lendl
Gustavo Kurten
Roger Federer
Novak Djokovic

Are all way way ahead of Thiem.

There is a 2nd bracket of players that include the likes of Agassi, Change, Ferrer, Soderling and Ferrero that are above Thiem still.

Those are the ones I can remember of the top of my head.
Muster has 1RG and a total of 40 clay titles, would definitely rank him with the likes of Fed and Djoker for the sheer amount of titles, even if he won a lot of mickymouse tournys and was a talentless mug on other surfaces.
 

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Let's see how he competes with Tsitsi once Rafa fades out. I believe Tsitsi will be a proper dominating force on all surfaces.
 
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