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From no sanctions, to even those that harm tennis, what is right choice?

  • No sanction. Let Putin have Ukraine,its not worth to put pressure on Putin if it raises fuel prices.

    Votes: 5 6.4%
  • We should undo ALL sanctions as they negatively impact innocent people- including those in Russia.

    Votes: 13 16.7%
  • Ok, sanctions always create hardship, but they must not create hardship for SPORTS people.

    Votes: 5 6.4%
  • It is OK, to harm the sporting careers of players for NATIONAL TEAMS, but not individuals.

    Votes: 24 30.8%
  • It is OK for other sports people to be paying a price to support sanctions, but NOT TENNIS PLAYERS

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • If sanctions also harm tennis player careers, then OK but tennis should try and compensate players.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Millions of Russians who do not support the war are already impacted, why not tennis players ?

    Votes: 7 9.0%
  • Ban whoever if it puts pressure on Putin and stop buying fuel from Russia even if prices go up.

    Votes: 20 25.6%
  • Other?

    Votes: 4 5.1%
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited by Moderator)
The ban on Russian tennis players shocked me. It is totally unfair. Then I realised ..all sanctions are totally unfair, and can have terrible impacts on totally innocent people. It raises the question, if all sanctions are unfair, why should we support any sanctions? Or some innocent people can be harmed by sanctions, but not others?

Update: It seems clear from the poll results, many people on MTF believe individual sports people are a special class of people. Target normal people on the streets of Russia with sanctions, target those on national teams, but exempt individual sports people.

It becomes clear to me that every sanction taken against Russia, has negative implications for the income and careers of individuals, both within and beyond Russia, who are in no way complicit in the invasion of Ukraine.

Should the world completely rethink the idea of sanctions and actions against Russia, and avoid any response that causes hardship for innocent people?

from abcnews, on how thousands of German workers may be impacted by gas sanctions.
ABCNews said:
They argued that EU sanctions need to be targeted to put pressure on Russia while minimizing damages to the countries imposing the sanctions, saying “in the current discussion, we don’t see that.”
So it is ok to cause economic hardship to innocent people in Russia, but not in Germany. Or at least, minimal hardship to Germans in order to maximise harm to innocent Russians.

Right from the outset, it was innocent people inside Russia targeted by sanctions. I do not see Putin really having a tough life as a result of sanctions. The whole idea seems to be to target innocent Russians and make their lives so much worse so they get so upset with Putin they wont vote for him. Which will have a big impact next fair election. None of people in line outside banks after the financial sanctions looked to be part of Putin's inner circle, or other people who Putin will listen to.

Seeing the effects of sanctions on tennis players brings home the idea that sanctions harm innocent people. It is not just tennis players who can lose income, or even can lose their entire career, and every sanction has this impact, often on thousands if not millions. It seems the whole idea is to cause people pain in the hope they will blame Putin, and many of the people feeling the pain are not even in Russia.

I mean, lets face it, most of us have at least had to pay more for fuel as result of sanctions, but imagine if your employment was working on one of the many projects now abandoned in the name of sanctions.

Maybe it is all too hard, and if Putin wants to bomb Ukraine to pieces, there is nothing we can do about it without making lives harder for innocent people so we should just accept it.

Plant Flower Purple Petal Grass
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The whole point of sanctions is for the people to put pressure on the government. You think the oligarchs are happy that their wealth is being restricted? These may be the people that will eventually buckle.

You cannot cherrypick sanctions. Do you go up to every Russian and ask them if they support the war or not? Sure, they might say they don't - but that's just because they don't want to be sanctioned. You'd be surprised but there are a fair majority of people that still support Putin and I guarantee you there are some tennis players out there that do too.

You then get to the alternatives. What do you do if you don't use sanctions? Do countries go in and wipe Russia out?
I hope you are right on the Oligarchs. But I fear they have what in venture capital is described as "F*** you money". Where they have so much that more doesn't change their life, and it just becomes a game. How many lose lots through sanctions, but if Putin goes, they may lose everything. I fear Putin, and supporters, and locked into the war now, and no amount of sanctions will be enough. Putin can't even strike a peace deal now, as he knows if things open up, he will be chased for war crimes.

The world has changed by all this, and won't get better until Putin is gone, which I think will most likely only happen if he cannot hide that the war has failed.

I like your thoughts and as you say you can't invade Russia. If you even send troops into Ukraine it becomes different foreign forces fighting in a country. Wish they could be given better weapons.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I don't like this "all or nothing" mentality, we see it happen in the pandemic at times and it didn't work either way of extremes, and there needs to be balance appropriate for the current situation, and I feel banning individuals who already aren't representing sanctioned countries is low on priorities of what needs to be addressed IMO.
I agree on the "no to an all or nothing" mentality, and maybe you are right about sanctions can harm millions in Russia but not the hundred or individual sports players who are free to travel and higher profile. But I do worry the "middle ground" on we can give Ukraine some weapons, but not enough to upset Russia is a replay of the start of WWII.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
3 probably enough



I don't grasp what you mean with this?
I was thinking that an additional choice that combined your thoughts might more clearly express your view. If you can think of words that that do that and want me to add them, I could add it as a choice. But even if you prefer not to have a new choice, I would value hearing what answers you wish to combine. I try to listen and learn.
 

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Discussion Starter · #109 ·
Russian people abroad are not sanctioned unless connected with Putin. Russian football players can't play for Team Russia but they still can choose a club abroad. Why tennis players abroad should be sanctioned if they are not connected with Putin?
Just to be clear, I do not like any of the sanctions that harm anyone except Putin and his direct supporters, and I uncertain there is even one sanction that achieves that narrow focus. Sad truth is all sanctions affect people beyond Putin and his direct supporters.

Also to be clear, everything you say makes sense and I am not setting out to disagree with you, but to discuss. I am looking at the points against your argument just to run though them rather than to say these points are reasons you are wrong.

It seems logical that the better the ratio of affecting Putin and his supporters vs others, the better the sanction..

You said "Russian people abroad are not sanctioned unless connected with Putin."
I like the sentiment. It makes sense. But I think you mean "Russian people abroad are not should not be sanctioned unless connected with Putin." As this Wimbledon thing is sanctioning people who not directly connected to Putin. So people not directly connected with Putin are being sanctioned!.

These sanctions stink. I agree that banning national teams make far more sense than banning individuals. In fact I have even advocated for that exact "drawing of the line". However, it is not like banning national teams doesn't also impact innocent players. Just that the it is easier to believe it also impacts Putin, and hopefully those players don't only play in the national team, so they are impacted less.

This is not the first time an individual has been effected, and for example Mazepin the Russian F1 driver lost his drive in F1.

Further, there are wheat sanctions. These sanction wheat farmers, the towns where the wheat is grown, and even beyond Russia the people who need the wheat. I do not think Putin is the one selling their wheat, or the person needing to eat it. That ratio of harm to Putin vs harm to innocent people again.

All these sanctions stink.
I am not happy about the banning of players from Wimbledon. I am very uncertain about whether is adds up, but every sanction is balance of harming innocent people in the hope of also harming or influencing Putin. There is definitive point to draw the line between what adds up as a sanction and what does not. Drawing the line between national teams and individuals makes sense to me, but the important point is that is an artificial line. People who should not be hurt are still hurt, and whether Putin is hurt is unclear.

It is questionable where we should draw the line. I now realise they have just moved that line from where you are comfortable, and I was comfortable as well. I am not sure I am comfortable with this new place for the line, but I do now realise that there are already other sanctions that may be even less fair than this one. Doesn't make this sanction right, but it seems to make little sense to complain only when it affects tennis, and no complain about the injustice to farmers, and ordinary Russian people who suffer from sanctions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #110 ·
Sanctions have multiple functions:
  • cut the income and wealth of the murderous state
  • strengthen the resistance and unsatisfaction within the population and the soldiers to either not re-elect their murderous government or to overthrow it
  • hurt the income and wealth of stars and important people supporting the murderous government to change their opportunistic positions
  • reduce the military strength by stopping the export of weapons and technology
  • isolate the murderous state internationaly to reduce its influence on global politics
  • let the murderous state know that there is a price for violation of international law and human rights in order to prevent future violations
Often they hurt the wrong people and can be cruel to the poorest ones. However, taking part in the war with bombs also mostly hurts the wrong people and is no good alternative...
Good summary. Mind if I use it and quote you?
 

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Discussion Starter · #117 · (Edited)
In context of this thread, that is not a good summary.

He said "hurt the income and wealth of stars and important people supporting the murderous government to change their opportunistic positions". However, players affected with this ban have NOT expressed any support to Putin and this war. Also, what opportunistic positions Russian tennis players have?
There is a good point there.
But another way of looking at it, is that if that it is a good summary of the goals of sanctions, then banning Russian players who have not expressed any support for Putin and this war is not consistent with these goals. :)

Or to put it the other way around, since none of those criteria support the ban on Russian players, then if you support the ban, you need to find an additional criteria that justifies sanctions.

I wonder if you have any input on this @Görgianer? The ban on players does not fit any other criteria, and as ivanban points, out, does not really fit this one either.
 

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Discussion Starter · #118 ·
Wimbledon is the first to politicize this war. They have unleashed the politics in tennis and its for the worse. Why arent we banning Israel, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and others?
I do not agree that they are the first to politicise it, unless you mean the first tennis tournament to do so, and I not sure that is true either, but the have taken applying sanctions related to the war within tennis to a new level, that is for sure.

"Why arent we banning Israel, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and others?"
That is a good question.

Some might simply say, because in their subjective judgement this is worse than those other situations, but that still does not answer why they feel it is worse, and I feel that is worth considering.

For me, 'line' as to when sanctions or other actions are required, is all about freedom of the press that enables the citizens to hear what their government is doing , and democratic process that allows the people of the country in question to remove that government in response to hearing the truth. Yes, it requires faith the entire nations of people do not have radically different morals to the rest of the world.

On the basis, I think Israel gets at a pass even if their actions are questionable, at least their people have the information and ability to decide. As for the others......... not so sure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #123 ·
Another option that can work for me. Russian players can play but their t-shirts and bag read "End Putin's criminal & murderous war" in Russian... Wimbledon should adjust their clothing rules for that this year ;)
Making the Russian players alone do that is discrimination. But making everyone do it could be an interesting idea.
 

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Discussion Starter · #125 ·
New experiment that we are sending on Eurovision freak show. :D You can turn on English CC, but it will become even more weird.
On a side note. Anyone that is ready to bet that Ukraine will win on that contest? Didn't listen to their song, but I don't think that quality will be deciding factor anyway. :p
Are they not entering "frozen"?
 

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Discussion Starter · #148 ·

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Discussion Starter · #150 ·
That's no discrimination at all. It is their nation attacking other nations and comitting war crimes. And we know a majority of russians support this war. Therefore they have to distance themself from their nation's war. The Ukrainians do not have to distance from Russia's invasion of their own country - that's absurd.
I cannot see why Ukrainians or anyone else should have a problem with "do not support Russia's invasion of Ukraine" somewhere on their clothes. Maybe not those words exactly, but I think a better wordsmith than I could find words that should be acceptable to all but those who should not be on the arena.
 

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Discussion Starter · #175 ·
Many of the people that are against sanctions have spoken well about how innocent people (Russians not supporting Putin's war) will be hurt. No doubt that is true - whatever type of sanction is chosen, it is a blunt weapon with a lot of unwanted side effects. However, I would be curious to hear what other means to stop Putin's war critics of sanctioning are advocating.
There is the odd one speak out against sanctions in general, but the I think the two most common perspectives are:
  1. Sanctioning national teams is OK, but sanctioning individual players is an injustice.
  2. If all these sanctions against Russia, why not also sanction other countries.
You comment directly hits the point being missed by many people with number #1. Yes it is an injustice, but as you point out, all sanctions have a degree of injustice. Although this sanction of players may have more injustice than banning teams, it is far from being the sanction causing the greatest number of people, or the people with the greatest suffering. If we wish to limit sanction due to the injustice, it is hard to justify this being the primary candidate.

On #2.... sad really. Yes perhaps all the Myanmar players, and the Saudis who were to play Wimbledon should also be ruled out?
 

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Discussion Starter · #177 · (Edited)
Are Germans bombing the Ukraine to make it part of Germany? Are Polish committing mass murder in a neighbouring country to extend their borders?

Maybe you did not hear but Putin invaded the Ukraine, not the whole world ;)
I guess it was ambiguous what I meant.

Everyone wearing a patch on clothing condemning Russia's invasion of Ukraine. I liked your idea, I just thought it easier if everyone was echoing the message you suggested.
 

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Discussion Starter · #180 ·
they are not Ukainian. So they dont get to play under Ukrainian flag.
I am doing the right thing. Which is to oppose bigotry on the basis of nationality of a person, which is against UN human rights charter your country is signatory to.
Perhaps germans are not removed enough from Nazi period to really understand what human rights is.
Is is just me, or is there an inconsistency here?

 

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Discussion Starter · #207 ·
Please provide any evidence that any of the pro russian player opposed the war and the war crimes of their nation?
And don't come with such a shit, that these players have no connection to their nation. They play officially for russia, the play under the russian flag, the pay money to russia, they often pronounce how proud theiy are to be russian, etc. These guys are connected to russia and, hence, have to speak out that they oppose this damned russian war of their damned nation. Not standing up to crimes of your group is a crime itself.
There is a difference between being proud of your nation and proud of your government.

I think the ban is unfair on the players, but less unfair than sanctions on people who need or grow wheat, without even getting into whether it is fair to bomb people. A consequence of war is that unfair stuff happens, and you even have to do unfair things to end wars.

I don't think any competition organise committee should ban Russian players. ATP and WTA should work with banks and financial review agencies to deposit tournament prize into designated accounts and ensure that no prize are used to fund wars instead.
If something like this was practical, it would be even more important to it with wheat. There are people who need the wheat, and the wheat farmers probably need their livelihood even more then the average tennis player who can fly to England.
 

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Discussion Starter · #209 ·
What do you mean? I'm not to cut Russian players income.
I did not assume you were. I thought you were saying it is unfair to ban them, and were against the ban. I read it as that instead of the ban, you were suggesting to ensure none of the money help Putin. I was suggesting that if your idea could work, then there are also other people unfairly suffering from sanctions who it could also help.

I do not know if your idea could work or not, but if it could, then your idea could also help others, not just tennis players.
 
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