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From no sanctions, to even those that harm tennis, what is right choice?

  • No sanction. Let Putin have Ukraine,its not worth to put pressure on Putin if it raises fuel prices.

    Votes: 5 6.3%
  • We should undo ALL sanctions as they negatively impact innocent people- including those in Russia.

    Votes: 13 16.5%
  • Ok, sanctions always create hardship, but they must not create hardship for SPORTS people.

    Votes: 5 6.3%
  • It is OK, to harm the sporting careers of players for NATIONAL TEAMS, but not individuals.

    Votes: 24 30.4%
  • It is OK for other sports people to be paying a price to support sanctions, but NOT TENNIS PLAYERS

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • If sanctions also harm tennis player careers, then OK but tennis should try and compensate players.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Millions of Russians who do not support the war are already impacted, why not tennis players ?

    Votes: 8 10.1%
  • Ban whoever if it puts pressure on Putin and stop buying fuel from Russia even if prices go up.

    Votes: 20 25.3%
  • Other?

    Votes: 4 5.1%
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited by Moderator)
The ban on Russian tennis players shocked me. It is totally unfair. Then I realised ..all sanctions are totally unfair, and can have terrible impacts on totally innocent people. It raises the question, if all sanctions are unfair, why should we support any sanctions? Or some innocent people can be harmed by sanctions, but not others?

Update: It seems clear from the poll results, many people on MTF believe individual sports people are a special class of people. Target normal people on the streets of Russia with sanctions, target those on national teams, but exempt individual sports people.

It becomes clear to me that every sanction taken against Russia, has negative implications for the income and careers of individuals, both within and beyond Russia, who are in no way complicit in the invasion of Ukraine.

Should the world completely rethink the idea of sanctions and actions against Russia, and avoid any response that causes hardship for innocent people?

from abcnews, on how thousands of German workers may be impacted by gas sanctions.
ABCNews said:
They argued that EU sanctions need to be targeted to put pressure on Russia while minimizing damages to the countries imposing the sanctions, saying “in the current discussion, we don’t see that.”
So it is ok to cause economic hardship to innocent people in Russia, but not in Germany. Or at least, minimal hardship to Germans in order to maximise harm to innocent Russians.

Right from the outset, it was innocent people inside Russia targeted by sanctions. I do not see Putin really having a tough life as a result of sanctions. The whole idea seems to be to target innocent Russians and make their lives so much worse so they get so upset with Putin they wont vote for him. Which will have a big impact next fair election. None of people in line outside banks after the financial sanctions looked to be part of Putin's inner circle, or other people who Putin will listen to.

Seeing the effects of sanctions on tennis players brings home the idea that sanctions harm innocent people. It is not just tennis players who can lose income, or even can lose their entire career, and every sanction has this impact, often on thousands if not millions. It seems the whole idea is to cause people pain in the hope they will blame Putin, and many of the people feeling the pain are not even in Russia.

I mean, lets face it, most of us have at least had to pay more for fuel as result of sanctions, but imagine if your employment was working on one of the many projects now abandoned in the name of sanctions.

Maybe it is all too hard, and if Putin wants to bomb Ukraine to pieces, there is nothing we can do about it without making lives harder for innocent people so we should just accept it.

Plant Flower Purple Petal Grass
 

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The whole point of sanctions is for the people to put pressure on the government. You think the oligarchs are happy that their wealth is being restricted? These may be the people that will eventually buckle.

You cannot cherrypick sanctions. Do you go up to every Russian and ask them if they support the war or not? Sure, they might say they don't - but that's just because they don't want to be sanctioned. You'd be surprised but there are a fair majority of people that still support Putin and I guarantee you there are some tennis players out there that do too.

You then get to the alternatives. What do you do if you don't use sanctions? Do countries go in and wipe Russia out?
 

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The Russian army is systematically committing genocide and turning eastern Ukraine into rubble, life in the rest of Europe should not go on as normal. Russia's ability to wage war needs to be crippled even if that means making the life of an ordinary Russian or European more difficult. Ultimately, the Russian society has the most power to stop this stupid war, so if it wants to go back to the old normal it needs to step up. If it prefers to be poor and isolated by not opposing its regime, well that's the fate it's choosing.
 

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I don't like this "all or nothing" mentality, we see it happen in the pandemic at times and it didn't work either way of extremes, and there needs to be balance appropriate for the current situation, and I feel banning individuals who already aren't representing sanctioned countries is low on priorities of what needs to be addressed IMO.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The whole point of sanctions is for the people to put pressure on the government. You think the oligarchs are happy that their wealth is being restricted? These may be the people that will eventually buckle.

You cannot cherrypick sanctions. Do you go up to every Russian and ask them if they support the war or not? Sure, they might say they don't - but that's just because they don't want to be sanctioned. You'd be surprised but there are a fair majority of people that still support Putin and I guarantee you there are some tennis players out there that do too.

You then get to the alternatives. What do you do if you don't use sanctions? Do countries go in and wipe Russia out?
I hope you are right on the Oligarchs. But I fear they have what in venture capital is described as "F*** you money". Where they have so much that more doesn't change their life, and it just becomes a game. How many lose lots through sanctions, but if Putin goes, they may lose everything. I fear Putin, and supporters, and locked into the war now, and no amount of sanctions will be enough. Putin can't even strike a peace deal now, as he knows if things open up, he will be chased for war crimes.

The world has changed by all this, and won't get better until Putin is gone, which I think will most likely only happen if he cannot hide that the war has failed.

I like your thoughts and as you say you can't invade Russia. If you even send troops into Ukraine it becomes different foreign forces fighting in a country. Wish they could be given better weapons.
 

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The Russian army is systematically committing genocide and turning eastern Ukraine into rubble, life in the rest of Europe should not go on as normal. Russia's ability to wage war needs to be crippled even if that means making the life of an ordinary Russian or European more difficult. Ultimately, the Russian society has the most power to stop this stupid war, so if it wants to go back to the old normal it needs to step up. If it prefers to be poor and isolated by not opposing its regime, well that's the fate it's choosing.
Other than antagonize the Russian population, what do you think the ban on Russian players will achieve?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I don't like this "all or nothing" mentality, we see it happen in the pandemic at times and it didn't work either way of extremes, and there needs to be balance appropriate for the current situation, and I feel banning individuals who already aren't representing sanctioned countries is low on priorities of what needs to be addressed IMO.
I agree on the "no to an all or nothing" mentality, and maybe you are right about sanctions can harm millions in Russia but not the hundred or individual sports players who are free to travel and higher profile. But I do worry the "middle ground" on we can give Ukraine some weapons, but not enough to upset Russia is a replay of the start of WWII.
 

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How many choices would you want?
3 probably enough

When one person selects multiple, it cannot be clearly seen they wanted multiple. Perhaps a single choice reflecting the combination would be better?
I don't grasp what you mean with this?
 

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It seems the whole idea is to cause people pain in the hope they will blame Putin, and many of the people feeling the pain are not even in Russia.
Sanctions have multiple functions:
  • cut the income and wealth of the murderous state
  • strengthen the resistance and unsatisfaction within the population and the soldiers to either not re-elect their murderous government or to overthrow it
  • hurt the income and wealth of stars and important people supporting the murderous government to change their opportunistic positions
  • reduce the military strength by stopping the export of weapons and technology
  • isolate the murderous state internationaly to reduce its influence on global politics
  • let the murderous state know that there is a price for violation of international law and human rights in order to prevent future violations
Often they hurt the wrong people and can be cruel to the poorest ones. However, taking part in the war with bombs also mostly hurts the wrong people and is no good alternative...
 

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Other than antagonize the Russian population, what do you think the ban on Russian players will achieve?
By itself absolutely nothing. I don't think it will antagonize the Russian population all that much either, they should have other things to worry about. Altogether, it should be the cumulative effect of all the sanctions that moves the needle in whichever direction.

The fear of antagonizing Russians shouldn't drive our decisions. If the Russian society can't link Putin's announcement of the 'special military operation' with subsequent deterioration of the quality of life, instead choosing the 'evil Westerners hate us of no reason at all', again that's the choice they're making and so be it.

The silence of the Russian(/Belarussian) tennis community in particular has been disappointing, I think only Pavlyuchenkova and Azarenka made direct unequivocal statements condemning the invasion on Ukraine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
3 probably enough



I don't grasp what you mean with this?
I was thinking that an additional choice that combined your thoughts might more clearly express your view. If you can think of words that that do that and want me to add them, I could add it as a choice. But even if you prefer not to have a new choice, I would value hearing what answers you wish to combine. I try to listen and learn.
 

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Any sanctions that help to put pressure on Putin to stop or shorten the war are ok. The "collateral damage" caused by the sanctions is never as a big as the damage caused by a prolonged war. The big question is which sanctions are useful in this respect, however, and there is certainly no easy answer to that question.
 

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My opinion is that there are people around Putin, who are known, who are enabling him to be in power. Every person around Putin is known, there are 6 thousands of them in a list compiled by Alexey Navalny.

Sanction these 6 thousands and state-owned enterprises,they're responsible. The rest are not and it is xenophobic to sanction merely on basis of nationality.
 

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Sanctions have multiple functions:
  • cut the income and wealth of the murderous state
  • strengthen the resistance and unsatisfaction within the population and the soldiers to either not re-elect their murderous government or to overthrow it
  • hurt the income and wealth of stars and important people supporting the murderous government to change their opportunistic positions
  • reduce the military strength by stopping the export of weapons and technology
  • isolate the murderous state internationaly to reduce its influence on global politics
  • let the murderous state know that there is a price for violation of international law and human rights in order to prevent future violations
Often they hurt the wrong people and can be cruel to the poorest ones. However, taking part in the war with bombs also mostly hurts the wrong people and is no good alternative...
What a parallel universe you live in. You have no idea how a totalitarian regime works, do you.

  • cut the income of what. The ruble is back where it was, as Russia can deal with states which will never back the West.
  • re-elect what? You think Putin is actually elected? What? Of what pressure are you talking about? A strong totalitarian state is totally locked, there is nothing any revolt can achieve. It may take half a century for a regime to have a weakness that can cause it to fall.
  • hurting tennis stars omly fuels the regime to put the West in an even worse light in front of Russian population, as this is REAL discrimination against them.
  • so naive if you think the export of weapons is stopped by sanctions. If anything, it is actually increased towards nations against the West. In other words, this is making these anti US nations stronger.
  • sure, Russia won't deal with the West, but tell me you don't believe it is isolated.
  • You've let them know that the West is not a viable trading partner, prepare for economic fallout and inflation. Good job!
 

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My opinion is that there are people around Putin, who are known, who are enabling him to be in power. Every person around Putin is known, there are 6 thousands of them in a list compiled by Alexey Navalny.

Sanction these 6 thousands and state-owned enterprises,they're responsible. The rest are not and it is xenophobic to sanction merely on basis of nationality.
Well put!
 
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