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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I know there is no official investigation report as of this time and all we have is conjecture on our part. But since this has been a headline story in major news channels and papers then it’s better to focus all related posts in this thread rather than spread out in other derailed threads

Here’s what I think actually happened: the Saudi government planned to try to convince Khashoggi to return to Saudi Arabia and if he doesn’t agree with his own will it was prepared to kidnap him back to Saudi Arabia - something which is known to have happened to rogue Saudi royal family members.

However things went horribly wrong this time around and he accidentaly died inside the consulate from a sedative overdose or by other means and all that happened since then was a rushed attempt to hide the fact

In this scenario the kidnap was the plan and the murder was accidental , and the Saudi government is too embarrassed to admit all this, hence all the efforts to obfuscate what actually happened


I have no proof for any of this , but to me this is the most likely scenario and would explain most things , exceptthe presence of the forensics expert , but maybe he was needed in the team for the kidnapping itself and not actually chopping, this assuming the reports about his presence is true
 

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That is what just about everybody assumes.

But you did not reach the obvious conclusion that once in Saudi Arabia, he would have "disappeared" anyway.

So one way or the other, he was probably assassinated by the Saudi government. And the arrival of the agents and their swift departure certainly indicates that he was going back to Saudi Arabia dead or alive.

But you seem to have altered your position, from earlier today when you said there was no evidence of anything amiss. As far as I know there has been no additional evidence since then.

Except perhaps, for the reports that US intelligence intercepted Saudis discussing how to get Khashoggi to S. Arabia.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
That is what just about everybody assumes.
Not from what I hear and read on my side, everyone either thinks the Saudi government is completely innocent or completely complicit

But you seem to have altered your position, from earlier today when you said there was no evidence he ever entered the consulate.
I recall saying that the absence of evidence of him coming out (as of now) doesn’t necessarily prove he never got out , I didn’t deny the fact he went in
 

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Discussion Starter #4
But you did not reach the obvious conclusion that once in Saudi Arabia, he would have "disappeared" anyway.
To me intentions matter, while kidnapping is abhorrent enough deliberate and pre-meditated murder is on a whole different level
 

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Not from what I hear and read on my side, everyone either thinks the Saudi government is completely innocent or completely complicit
I don’t know who claims the Saudi government is innocent, except pantelija and the Saudi government.

Edit: unless you are claiming that it was an accident. But I do not think that is an option. If he was not intended to be killed in Turkey, he would have been killed in S. Arabia.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Not from what I hear and read on my side, everyone either thinks the Saudi government is completely innocent or completely complicit
I don’t know who claims the Saudi government is innocent, except pantelija and the Saudi government.
Most Saudi twitter handles blame Qatar/Iran/Turkey conspiracy , certainly the influential ones do (per orders of government or to gain favors? Who knows)

If it turned out to be true and his death was claimed accidental , I see Trump giving a slap on the wrist to his Saudi friends , and Erdogan favoring a mild response rather than sever ties and hurt his economy
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Edit: unless you are claiming that it was an accident. But I do not think that is an option. If he was not intended to be killed in Turkey, he would have been killed in S. Arabia.
He could have been jailed for a virtual life sentence which is the preferred method of dealing with outspoken dissidents here

I know Nimr al-Nimr was publicly executed but in his case they managed to find evidence of him participating in actual violent shootings against armed forces , a similar sentence would never have been justified against Khashoggi
 

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Discussion Starter #8
https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/my-statement-kingdom-saudi-arabia?amp#click=https://t.co/N55w9kVlyq

I had high hopes for the current government in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and its leader Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman and it is why I was delighted to accept two directorships in the tourism projects around the Red Sea. I felt that I could give practical development advice and also help protect the precious environment around the coastline and islands.

What has reportedly happened in Turkey around the disappearance of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, if proved true, would clearly change the ability of any of us in the West to do business with the Saudi Government. We have asked for more information from the authorities in Saudi and to clarify their position in relation to Mr Khashoggi.

While those investigations are ongoing and Mr Khashoggi’s presence is not known, I will suspend my directorships of the two tourism projects. Virgin will also suspend its discussions with the Public Investment Fund over the proposed investment in our space companies Virgin Galactic and Virgin Orbit.[I had high hopes for the current government in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and its leader Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman and it is why I was delighted to accept two directorships in the tourism projects around the Red Sea. I felt that I could give practical development advice and also help protect the precious environment around the coastline and islands.

What has reportedly happened in Turkey around the disappearance of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, if proved true, would clearly change the ability of any of us in the West to do business with the Saudi Government. We have asked for more information from the authorities in Saudi and to clarify their position in relation to Mr Khashoggi.

While those investigations are ongoing and Mr Khashoggi’s presence is not known, I will suspend my directorships of the two tourism projects. Virgin will also suspend its discussions with the Public Investment Fund over the proposed investment in our space companies Virgin Galactic and Virgin Orbit.
The backlash is real
 

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They killed him and got rid of his body within the consulate. Saudi Arabia is the most disgusting country in the world. They stink. The guy was there to get paperwork for his divorce and already asked his security before, and SA gave guarantees. But he was already so afraid that told his fiancee to call Turkish officials if he never gets out. Imagine the fear. Reports tell that 15 men team from Riyad, Saudi Arabia arrived in Istanbul the day before and massacred the journalist, then left. State terrorism.

And the fact that they had guts to kill the dissident journalist in a foreign country, (even though embassies and consulates are assumed respective country's land) in a city I was born, makes it even worse. Turkish people are furious atm. The guy thought it is safe here, he was our guest. Who could have guessed Saudis would dare to kill a journalist WITHIN a diplomatic mission in a foreign land. They are crazy to pull that.

They won't get away with it this time. World must react.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
They killed him and got rid of his body within the consulate. Saudi Arabia is the most disgusting country in the world. They stink. The guy was there to get paperwork for his divorce and already asked his security before, and SA gave guarantees. But he was already so afraid that told his fiancee to call Turkish officials if he never gets out. Imagine the fear. Reports tell that 15 men team from Riyad, Saudi Arabia arrived in Istanbul the day before and massacred the journalist, then left. State terrorism.

And the fact that they had guts to kill the dissident journalist in a foreign country, in MY city, (even though embassies and consulates are assumed respective country's land) makes it even worse. Turkish people are furious atm. The guy thought it is safe here, he was our guest. Who could have guessed Saudis would dare to kill a journalist WITHIN a diplomatic mission in foreign land. They are crazy to pull that.

They won't get away with it this time. World must react.
Umm wasn’t the Russian ambassador murdered in your country like 2 years ago in front of cameras ?

Seems more like a common occurrence to me
 

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Umm wasn’t the Russian ambassador murdered in your country like 2 years ago in front of cameras ?

Seems more like a common occurrence to me
Umm. And the relevance? The dude was mentally ill and got killed anyway. And I am by no means pro-Erdogan if you read my posts in this section. I even think actually he may agree with SA somehow, money or smth, and could try to cover this together. Because he is also corrupt and has no ethics whatsoever in diplomacy.

SA is terribly ruled state and you already acknowledged in this thread with your earlier posts, so I respect you. This murder is horrible like other acts of SA. But this is another level....I just can't how they did this to poor guy who was there to get paperwork. Completely harmless. And the fact that you chose not to direct those lines in my post....That must be clear to you too.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Umm wasn’t the Russian ambassador murdered in your country like 2 years ago in front of cameras ?

Seems more like a common occurrence to me
Umm. And the relevance? The dude was mentally ill and got killed anyway. And I am by no means pro-Erdogan if you read my posts in this section. I even think he will agree with SA somehow, money or smth, and will try to cover this together. Because he is also corrupt and has no ethics whatsoever in diplomacy.

SA is terribly ruled state and you already acknowledged in this thread with your earlier posts, so I respect you. This murder is horrible like other acts of SA. But this is another level....I just can't how they did this to poor guy who was there to get paperwork. Completely harmless. And the fact that you chose not to direct those lines in my post....That must be clear to you too.
It’s truly horrible and probably the worst political crime I can think of and deserves all condemnation and backlash it gets IF it was intentional and planned

If it’s what I think it was and he actually was overdosed by accident... I don’t even have words to describe what is unfolding right now from the Saudi point of view , would be like school children trying to cover up their fuck up , incredibly incompetent and a real tragedy but not as evil as the previous paragraph
 

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I know there is no official investigation report as of this time and all we have is conjecture on our part. But since this has been a headline story in major news channels and papers then it’s better to focus all related posts in this thread rather than spread out in other derailed threads

Here’s what I think actually happened: the Saudi government planned to try to convince Khashoggi to return to Saudi Arabia and if he doesn’t agree with his own will it was prepared to kidnap him back to Saudi Arabia - something which is known to have happened to rogue Saudi royal family members.

However things went horribly wrong this time around and he accidentaly died inside the consulate from a sedative overdose or by other means and all that happened since then was a rushed attempt to hide the fact

In this scenario the kidnap was the plan and the murder was accidental , and the Saudi government is too embarrassed to admit all this, hence all the efforts to obfuscate what actually happened


I have no proof for any of this , but to me this is the most likely scenario and would explain most things , exceptthe presence of the forensics expert , but maybe he was needed in the team for the kidnapping itself and not actually chopping, this assuming the reports about his presence is true
Sounds plausible.

Doesn't make KSA look any better though
 

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Turkish officials have told the US that they have recordings of Khashoggi being tortured and then murdered.

It gets more bizarre by the moment.
 

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They won't get away with it this time. World must react.
They will pay more money than they usually do to hush the strongest voices and Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince might not become the king. Maybe, I wouldn't bet on it. That's it. Unless there is something else deeper going on that I am not aware of.

Until very recently Mohammed bin Salman was hailed as a remarkable reformer in WaPo and NYT.
 

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A year ago:
Thomas L. Friedman:

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — I never thought I’d live long enough to write this sentence: The most significant reform process underway anywhere in the Middle East today is in Saudi Arabia. Yes, you read that right. Though I came here at the start of Saudi winter, I found the country going through its own Arab Spring, Saudi style.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/opinion/saudi-prince-mbs-arab-spring.html

This Friedman, one of the biggest idiots I have ever head opportunity to read, goes on to praise MBS (the prince) in the article. Unfortunately, Friedman is not the only fool among the leading analysts in the US, and unfortunately their opinions are influential.

But today I realized it was actually TRUMP all along:

Today:

How Trump enabled the abuses of Saudi Arabia’s crown prince
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/too-close-of-an-embrace-of-prince-mohammed/2018/10/09/dacd8658-cbe0-11e8-a360-85875bac0b1f_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.19ecb55d11cf


I don't have any problems criticizing Trump for his ties with SA, but I think the real fault and the root of the problem is somewhere else.
 

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I don’t know who claims the Saudi government is innocent, except pantelija and the Saudi government.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I just said there is no evidence for any valid conclusion and pointed out that mass media fabricates such news on a daily basis. Saudis might have turned his bones to gummy bears as well.
 

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Stop putting words in my mouth. I just said there is no evidence for any valid conclusion and pointed out that mass media fabricates such news on a daily basis. Saudis might have turned his bones to gummy bears as well.
In the other thread you said that the whole story seems like propaganda.

You then said that it was mind-boggling that anyone would believe the Saudis had murdered Khashoggi.

I took that to be a firm statement that you did not believe the Saudis had murdered Khashoggi. And that anybody who did suspect it was true must be unhinged.
I see no other interpretation of your post.
 

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In the other thread you said that the whole story seems like propaganda.

You then said that it was mind-boggling that anyone would believe the Saudis had murdered Khashoggi.

I took that to be a firm statement that you did not believe the Saudis had murdered Khashoggi. And that anybody who did suspect it was true must be unhinged.
I see no other interpretation of your post.
It does sound like propaganda 101.
And it is mind boggling people believe the story from mass media, as it is not based on anything substantial.
It does sound incredibly stupid for them to kill him in their own consulate.

Bottom line, we don't even have a body or any forensic evidence. Only reason why are we discussing death of this guy is what media reported. All their sources are anonymous, including one claiming they have audio recording of beating and murder.

Maybe he was killed by Saudis. Maybe he was not killed at all. Maybe he was killed by ones who are now framing the Saudis. It's just wild guessing though.
 
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