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Yeah, I was just commenting on the point/wording of HK being 'Taiwanized', which I reckoned was not accurate as Taiwan even before the law may have been more free than HK (?; thinking about the developments in recent years; China meddling with HK elections? edit. the '31 August Decision' and the electoral process by committee), but certainly after. Taiwan has a democratically elected government (as you stated), own army etc. But their predicament as well has worsened over the years. More and more pressure in many ways. As per the article above: "In addition to hardening its rhetoric against Taiwan, China has sought to isolate the island diplomatically. In the last five years, Beijing has poached seven of Taipei’s formal allies, leaving only 15 countries that recognize Taiwan as an independent country."

Only 15 left that recognize Taiwan (and maintain official diplomatic relations). I recall the situation for long being that Taiwan is rather free to operate economically, but not so politically. E.g. they are part of the World Trade Organization, but not UN (as you noted). But still maintain political freedom within the country.
Exactly this is the case as Hong Kong in contrary to Taiwan was a legal subject in the eyes of Beijing, as @clearwaters said HK is a Special Administrative Region. On the other hand Taiwan is more some kind of a heretic region which never got official support for anything since it's in an eternal segregationist state from its mother land. I took rather the perspective from Beijing than the international perspective, although HK enjoyed quite lots of economical freedom and benefits as well compared to mainland China. For example just recently HK got hit by the US sanctions which actually hurt China the most since they profited from their loophole in the South.

So they treated HK already as an ordinary Chinese city where the CCP can make their business. Or as a famous controversial politologist from China explained, HK will be the new Tibet. Whenever they will benefit from their unique situation, they will milk that out for cash. However, the state of a 'Special Admiministrative Region' with the One Country, Two Systems mantra is led ad absurdum since Beijing is more or less openly dictating what will go on in HK. Whereas the people who still fight and protest for the UK-China treaty and its 50 years of maintenance (aka democracy) will get bullied just like the Taiwanese state.

I don't see there any improvement from the former HK, which had quite a comfortable situation economically and politically as the situation was stable and many companies outsourced to there, to current Taiwan. It's actually a downgrade since Taiwan never could have these benefits tolerated even by China like HK did. Well, did, since it's in the process of becoming your typical Chinese metropole.
 
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Exactly this is the case as Hong Kong in contrary to Taiwan was a legal subject in the eyes of Beijing, as @clearwaters said HK is a Special Administrative Region. On the other hand Taiwan is more some kind of a heretic region which never got official support for anything since it's in an eternal segregationist state from its mother land. I took rather the perspective from Beijing than the international perspective, although HK enjoyed quite lots of economical freedom and benefits as well compared to mainland China. For example just recently HK got hit by the US sanctions which actually hurt China the most since they profited from their loophole in the South.
Taiwan did e.g. have the UN seat until 1971 (China and the United Nations - Wikipedia) and countless official diplomatic relations which have eroded country after country since 1949 (Timeline of diplomatic relations of the Republic of China - Wikipedia). But with US the relations ceased e.g. not until 1979 (Chinese Economic Reform and Opening Up Policy).

edit. If you meant Taiwan never got official support for anything from PRC... The economic relations have been booming regardless. It's straightforward that PRC (or CCP rather) would show more support for HK than Taiwan when it has managed to assimilate/integrate the prior as part of itself; it has essentially been supporting one of its regions since 1997. The latter has so far managed to maintain its defacto independence, with a higher degree of self governance and democracy; to a degree that HK has not been able to reach (universal suffrage; Democracy Index - Wikipedia).

So they treated HK already as an ordinary Chinese city where the CCP can make their business. Or as a famous controversial politologist from China explained, HK will be the new Tibet. Whenever they will benefit from their unique situation, they will milk that out for cash. However, the state of a 'Special Admiministrative Region' with the One Country, Two Systems mantra is led ad absurdum since Beijing is more or less openly dictating what will go on in HK. Whereas the people who still fight and protest for the UK-China treaty and its 50 years of maintenance (aka democracy) will get bullied just like the Taiwanese state.

I don't see there any improvement from the former HK, which had quite a comfortable situation economically and politically as the situation was stable and many companies outsourced to there, to current Taiwan. It's actually a downgrade since Taiwan never could have these benefits tolerated even by China like HK did. Well, did, since it's in the process of becoming your typical Chinese metropole.
What benefits did HK have which Taiwan does not? Wasn't their situation pretty much that of Taiwan internationally, i.e. reduced to the economic sphere...


edit 2. Or are you referring to the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the amount of freedom (= "benefits") it was to guarantee? I read that a close adherence to policies and institutions established pre-1997 provided high levels of personal freedom and stability in HK, somewhat unprecedentedly in the absence of a full democracy. The Xi administration has been a turning point for China towards a far more assertive/harder line; and he can even now reign as long as he likes.

Even still, what do you mean specifically, benefits which Taiwan does not have? They e.g. do have rule of law; democracy (to a higher degree than HK has ever had); they've ranked higher than HK in personal freedom since 2014 (Fraser Institute).
 

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Taiwan did e.g. have the UN seat until 1971 (China and the United Nations - Wikipedia) and countless official diplomatic relations which have eroded country after country since 1949 (Timeline of diplomatic relations of the Republic of China - Wikipedia). But with US the relations ceased e.g. not until 1979 (Chinese Economic Reform and Opening Up Policy).

edit. If you meant Taiwan never got official support for anything from PRC... The economic relations have been booming regardless. It's straightforward that PRC (or CCP rather) would show more support for HK than Taiwan when it has managed to assimilate/integrate the prior as part of itself; it has essentially been supporting one of it's regions since 1997. The latter has so far managed to maintain it's defacto independence, with a higher degree of self governance and democracy; to a degree that HK never reached (universal suffrage; Democracy Index - Wikipedia).



What benefits did HK have which Taiwan does not? Wasn't their situation pretty much that of Taiwan internationally, i.e. reduced to the economic sphere...
Taiwan is de facto another country. What benefits are you talking about?
 

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Taiwan is de facto another country. What benefits are you talking about?
@IBM brought up HK enjoying certain benefits which PRC/CCP would never allow Taiwan to have, and I asked which benefits these are that HK has/had that Taiwan doesn't (I also mentioned TW is de facto its own country/nation). I.e. it was a request for IBM to elaborate.
 

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@IBM brought up HK enjoying certain benefits which PRC/CCP would never allow Taiwan to have, and I asked which benefits these are that HK has/had that Taiwan doesn't (I also mentioned TW is de facto its own country/nation). I.e. it was a request for IBM to elaborate.
Ohh, got it
 

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Taiwan did e.g. have the UN seat until 1971 (China and the United Nations - Wikipedia) and countless official diplomatic relations which have eroded country after country since 1949 (Timeline of diplomatic relations of the Republic of China - Wikipedia). But with US the relations ceased e.g. not until 1979 (Chinese Economic Reform and Opening Up Policy).

edit. If you meant Taiwan never got official support for anything from PRC... The economic relations have been booming regardless. It's straightforward that PRC (or CCP rather) would show more support for HK than Taiwan when it has managed to assimilate/integrate the prior as part of itself; it has essentially been supporting one of its regions since 1997. The latter has so far managed to maintain its defacto independence, with a higher degree of self governance and democracy; to a degree that HK has not been able to reach (universal suffrage; Democracy Index - Wikipedia).



What benefits did HK have which Taiwan does not? Wasn't their situation pretty much that of Taiwan internationally, i.e. reduced to the economic sphere...


edit 2. Or are you referring to the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the amount of freedom (= "benefits") it was to guarantee? I read that a close adherence to policies and institutions established pre-1997 provided high levels of personal freedom and stability in HK, somewhat unprecedentedly in the absence of a full democracy. The Xi administration has been a turning point for China towards a far more assertive/harder line; and he can even now reign as long as he likes.

Even still, what do you mean specifically, benefits which Taiwan does not have? They e.g. do have rule of law; democracy (to a higher degree than HK has ever had); they've ranked higher than HK in personal freedom since 2014 (Fraser Institute).
We're talking on cross purposes, because I'm insisting to see this from the Beijing perspective where Taiwan is de jure no country and just a region of China which is in some sort of dissent with its actual country. HK however was officially given by the Chinese government per declaration as you say, Hong Kong is until now a Special Administrative Region which has been awarded with much more rights than anything Taiwan got by Beijing. Taiwan got most of their rights by themselves within their democracy process.

For Beijing Taiwan is illegal, whereas HK was a free market place for even Chinese businessmen for now more than two decades, it just recently started to slow down ever since the Western world takes Chinese threats towards HK seriously now. The One Country Two Systems mantra from that declaration you have mentioned (which I was talking about all the time) failed.

So yes, I'm talking about the benefits that HK didn't get as much bullied by China, whereas you're talking about all the benefits an independent democratic country like Taiwan has. Only 14 countries have official relations to Taiwan, they get bullied in anything basically by China when it comes to international politics.
 
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We're talking on cross purposes, because I'm insisting to see this from the Beijing perspective where Taiwan is de jure no country and just a region of China which is in some sort of dissent with its actual country. HK however was officially given by the Chinese government per declaration as you say, Hong Kong is until now a Special Administrative Region which has been awarded with much more rights than anything Taiwan got by Beijing. Taiwan got most of their rights by themselves within their democracy process.

For Beijing Taiwan is illegal, whereas HK was a free market place for even Chinese businessmen for now more than two decades, it just recently started to slow down ever since the Western world takes Chinese threats towards HK seriously now. The One Country Two Systems mantra from that declaration you have mentioned (which I was talking about all the time) failed.

So yes, I'm talking about the benefits that HK didn't get as much bullied by China, whereas you're talking about all the benefits an independent democratic country like Taiwan has. Only 14 countries have official relations to Taiwan, they get bullied in anything basically by China when it comes to international politics.
Yes, but my point is that saying that Beijing/CCP would not give some benefits to Taiwan, which they allot to HK, is a bit similar to saying that Beijing/CCP doesn't give certain benefits to South Korea, which they give to HK. I.e. you're better off on your own (as your own country), doing your thing than relying on 'CCP's benefits/grace'. Again, what are these rights that HK has and Taiwan doesn't? You're better off keeping it up to yourself to decide over your benefits, i.e. self governance. Only 15 countries (it's 15 actually) have diplomatic relations with Taiwan / recognize Taiwan as a country, but how many do such in the case of HK? That's why I've been positing that a 'Taiwanized HK' would likely be a more favorable position, instead of a step back. You're self governed with a full democracy. Yes, your (official) political global reach is very much hampered (as is HK's), but you retain a role in international economic organizations (as does HK), and your economic actions aren't suppressed. Your trade with China flourishes (this is also a potential threat; reliance on trade with China; China is Taiwan's biggest trade partner).

Xi/his administration seems to be mounting the pressure against Taiwan as well (and overall a more hard line approach). Peaceful revolutions are rare. Probably need most of your citizens to support the position (which may have been the issue in HK, i.e. a split resistance) in order for it to be effective. But would a military threat be required to maintain independence... And dealing with someone as powerful as China, you need help from powerful allies, to put all sorts of pressure (including economic) on them. Still, are we moving towards the inevitable (with Taiwan)?

Can't help thinking about the past generations in Finland; feel gratitude for how they were able to fend off Soviet Union to retain our independence (actually at some point got help from Hitler and Germany to fend off the Soviets in Northern Finland/Lapland; but after that they had to drive away the Germans as a result of the peace treaty reached with Soviet Union).

 

The Lapland War (Finnish: Lapin sota; Swedish: Lapplandskriget; German: Lapplandkrieg) was fought between Finland and Nazi Germany effectively from September to November 1944 in Finland's northernmost region, Lapland, during World War II. Although Finns and Germans had been fighting the Soviet Union (USSR) together since 1941 during the Continuation War, the Soviet Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive in the summer of 1944 forced Finnish leadership to negotiate a separate peace agreement. The Moscow Armistice demanded Finland break diplomatic ties with Germany and expel or disarm any German soldiers remaining in Finland after 15 September 1944.
 

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Yes, but my point is that saying that Beijing/CCP would not give some benefits to Taiwan, which they allot to HK, is a bit similar to saying that Beijing/CCP doesn't give certain benefits to South Korea, which they give to HK. I.e. you're better off on your own (as your own country), doing your thing than relying on 'CCP's benefits/grace'. Again, what are these rights that HK has and Taiwan doesn't? You're better off keeping it up to yourself to decide over your benefits, i.e. self governance. Only 15 countries (it's 15 actually) have diplomatic relations with Taiwan / recognize Taiwan as a country, but how many do such in the case of HK? That's why I've been positing that a 'Taiwanized HK' would likely be a more favorable position, instead of a step back. You're self governed with a full democracy. Yes, your (official) political global reach is very much hampered (as is HK's), but you retain a role in international economic organizations (as does HK), and your economic actions aren't suppressed. Your trade with China flourishes (this is also a potential threat; reliance on trade with China; China is the biggest trade partner of Taiwan).

Xi/his administration seems to be mounting the pressure against Taiwan as well (and overall a more hard line approach). Peaceful revolutions are rare. Probably need most of your citizens to support the position (which may have been the issue in HK, i.e. a split resistance) in order for it to be effective. But retaining independence without a military threat seems very difficult. When you're dealing with someone as powerful as China, even more difficult. You need help from powerful allies, to put all sorts of pressure (including economic) on China. Still, are we moving towards the inevitable (with Taiwan)?

Can't help thinking about the past generations in Finland; feel gratitude for how they were able to fend off Soviet Union to retain our independence (actually at some point got help from Hitler and Germany to fend off the Soviets in Northern Finland/Lapland; but after that they had to drive away the Germans as a result of the peace treaty reached with Soviet Union).

 

Yes, I mean I agree completely with your point that universally seen becoming some sort of Taiwan 2.0 is actually good. Any kind of indepence is very good, but not for the sake of getting under imminent threat from China. The issue I've raised here is from the Beijingese perspective that HK has actually quite a special role since it's a region which formally can administrate themselves resp. it was expected to be like this, hence why HK and Macao are recognised as Special Administrative Regions. They have their limited freedom and are still on good terms with China and in 50 years time it will just become another ordinary Chinese city.

However, Hong Kongese had some kind of freedom to do whatever they wanted in HK, they could even protest and criticise China and the CCP. No issues were they unless you travel to mainland China as a high profile anti China activist, but there were no problems if you raised the same issues in HK. Actually HK had quite lots of benefits due to its status as a SAR, although many people opposed to China years already. As I've mentioned above China benefited the most since HK was a free market harbour where countries at the end traded with China there too. These issues just emerged ever since the first students revolts which China is now instrumentalising for themselves.

As for now these people who will raise the same issues they did a few years ago, will just face lots of legal issues since the 'national security' is under threat. Hence they're getting bullied just like Taiwanese people which was meant with 'Taiwanisation'.
 

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Yes, I mean I agree completely with your point that universally seen becoming some sort of Taiwan 2.0 is actually good. Any kind of indepence is very good, but not for the sake of getting under imminent threat from China. The issue I've raised here is from the Beijingese perspective that HK has actually quite a special role since it's a region which formally can administrate themselves resp. it was expected to be like this, hence why HK and Macao are recognised as Special Administrative Regions. They have their limited freedom and are still on good terms with China and in 50 years time it will just become another ordinary Chinese city.

However, Hong Kongese had some kind of freedom to do whatever they wanted in HK, they could even protest and criticise China and the CCP. No issues were they unless you travel to mainland China as a high profile anti China activist, but there were no problems if you raised the same issues in HK. Actually HK had quite lots of benefits due to its status as a SAR, although many people opposed to China years already. As I've mentioned above China benefited the most since HK was a free market harbour where countries at the end traded with China there too. These issues just emerged ever since the first students revolts which China is now instrumentalising for themselves.

As for now these people who will raise the same issues they did a few years ago, will just face lots of legal issues since the 'national security' is under threat. Hence they're getting bullied just like Taiwanese people which was meant with 'Taiwanisation'.
But the Taiwanese aren't bullied in that sense, they are fully free to do whatever they want in the way they deem fit according to their own rules. Yes, the country is bullied in the international arena but the Taiwanese enjoy feeedoms the Hongkongnese can only wetdream about.
 

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But the Taiwanese aren't bullied in that sense, they are fully free to do whatever they want in the way they deem fit according to their own rules. Yes, the country is bullied in the international arena but the Taiwanese enjoy feeedoms the Hongkongnese can only wetdream about.
Of course they can enjoy their freedom within Taiwanese borders, although they have been lots of threatening from China even withing the country. CCP even pays money to Taiwanese news tabloids to publish great stuff on China lol, so people are willing to give up their freedom for a bit of cash.

On a bigger scale you gotta realise how much Taiwan is getting treated as a pariah in international affairs since nobody wants to be on bad terms with China. So this is a benefit I was yesterday talking on especially, HK has been provided quite a lot of economical comfort, Taiwan didn't at all. Hong Kong officially is a Special Administrative Region (still), Taiwan a 'breakaway' region for China. The state HK's before the National Security Law was something Taiwan could only dream about.
 
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Of course they can enjoy their freedom within Taiwanese borders, although they have been lots of threatening from China even withing the country. CCP even pays money to Taiwanese news tabloids to publish great stuff on China lol, so people are willing to give up their freedom for a bit of cash.

On a bigger scale you gotta realise how much Taiwan is getting treated as a pariah in international affairs since nobody wants to be on bad terms with China. So this is a benefit I was yesterday talking on especially, HK has been provided quite a lot of economical comfort, Taiwan didn't at all. Hong Kong officially is a Special Administrative Region (still), Taiwan a 'breakaway' region for China. The state HK's before the National Security Law was something Taiwan could only dream about.
Even before the National Security Law, people in Taiwan were regarded to have more more freedom than the Hongkongese (Fraser Institute's Freedom Index). I stated in some earlier post that apparently a shift occurred around 2014 (or perhaps even slowly after Xi inauguration?). As I've also stated, Taiwan's economic relations haven't been particularly hampered and it (like HK) has retained it's place in internation organizations. Really no economic pariah, or do you have specific examples? Business with PRC as well has been flourishing. It's the international political sphere where Taiwan's official status has been minimized.
 

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Of course they can enjoy their freedom within Taiwanese borders, although they have been lots of threatening from China even withing the country. CCP even pays money to Taiwanese news tabloids to publish great stuff on China lol, so people are willing to give up their freedom for a bit of cash.

On a bigger scale you gotta realise how much Taiwan is getting treated as a pariah in international affairs since nobody wants to be on bad terms with China. So this is a benefit I was yesterday talking on especially, HK has been provided quite a lot of economical comfort, Taiwan didn't at all. Hong Kong officially is a Special Administrative Region (still), Taiwan a 'breakaway' region for China. The state HK's before the National Security Law was something Taiwan could only dream about.
I don't quite agree (understatement). Why would Taiwanese dream about that? In fact they've been offered exactly that for long to no avail. They are independent in all but name, totally unlike HK, whose freedoms depend de iure and de facto from the Communist Party of China as we are seeing.

Taiwan has "Trade Offices" everywhere acting as de facto embassies, enjoys a thriving economy on its own rights and is militarily protected against China by the US (by Treaty). HK could only dream about any of that.
 

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Even before the National Security Law, people in Taiwan were regarded to have more more freedom than the Hongkongese (Fraser Institute's Freedom Index). I stated in some earlier post that apparently a shift occurred around 2014 (or perhaps even slowly after Xi inauguration?). As I've also stated, Taiwan's economic relations haven't been particularly hampered and it (like HK) has retained it's place in internation organizations. Really no economic pariah, or do you have specific examples? Business with PRC as well has been flourishing. It's the international political sphere where Taiwan's official status has been minimized.
Fraser Institute especially values the degree of economic freedom, but it seems like you're attempting to consider their index as measurement for freedom in general. Besides they reduce Taiwan's complex state structure just as 'independent' which is already implying to have picked a side. An answer the Western world until now didn't deliver to it as you see with the only 15 countries they have an official diplomatic relationship with.

However, in this case an independent country is then naturally more economically free than a partly autonomous region which is still bond to Beijing for massive economical changes. The legislation is actually quite weak in HK, but the judiciary power much stronger than in Taiwan, hence economic freedom is restricted by HK's state itself. As the treaty you have mentioned settles down the One Country Two Systems policy, HK still is a part of China with a clear structure unlike Taiwan.

Actually Taiwan has its restrictions too which is for example the years long censorship of communist publications when it comes to freedom in general. In the grand scheme of the past 15 years HK was rather a safe heaven for Western investments since HK is until now a culturally diverse city/region, incredibly influenced by UK. Always a lot more inviting than Taiwan which is actually more close-minded and a lot more 'Asian' in that way without much of Western exposure. Compared to HK Taiwan really takes a pariah role.

I don't quite agree (understatement). Why would Taiwanese dream about that? In fact they've been offered exactly that for long to no avail. They are independent in all but name, totally unlike HK, whose freedoms depend de iure and de facto from the Communist Party of China as we are seeing.

Taiwan has "Trade Offices" everywhere acting as de facto embassies, enjoys a thriving economy on its own rights and is militarily protected against China by the US (by Treaty). HK could only dream about any of that.
Hong Kong is a financial center, Taiwan isn't. Big deals are sealed there and not in Taiwan which is incredibly export-centered (like China). Taiwanese actually go to HK to make deals and Taiwan seems more some kind of a resort for HKese. They are miles away from each other actually, which is why HK has benefited so much under British law and its treaty three decades ago. The reason is because it settled down what Hong Kong's state is which is an international, to certain degree self-autonomous (although legislation is still Beijing based) region.

As you say Taiwan has de facto embassies, but not de jure. Taiwan's political status is actually until now unsettled which is why it is so controversial, there are until now lots of debates between the de jure's and de facto's. Mind you that I'm strictly talking and arguing from a Chinese point of view, which is not my view. However, HK has the very big advantage that it has been settled down as a Special Administrative Region for at least 50 years and lots of businesses have chosen to settle down in HK. They have lots of advantages with cooperation opportunities with China under Western laws thanks to HK Basic Law, but can still cash in Chinese money. Yes, HK was under British rule and even now as part of the CCP an Asian El Dorado for many Western investors, obviously China has benefited of it a lot too. However, with their recent move they might have put too much at stake.
 
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Discussion Starter #195
Taiwai is undoubtedly politcally more free than Hong Kong as a de facto state. However I can understand "Taiwanising" means a more hostile stance from China, by international isolation for example, especially from the perspective of China. Many years ago the Chinese leaders spoke of "one country two systems" highly, which is completely different from the attitude of the existing CCP leadership. The former President Deng Xiaoping once said Hong Kong wouldn't change even AFTER 50 years as guaranteed, and the former premier Zhu Rongji once said that China was very proud to have Hong Kong, and if Hong Kong became a failure in the hand of CCP after the handover, it's also the responsibilty of the country and it would become a "sinner". Taiwanising makes sense in that towards Hong Kong, China has emphasised more on its sovereignty over the region.
 

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If Trump loses election, he might recognize Taiwan in December. He might do it anyway though.
 

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Discussion Starter #198
A very esteemed law professor, born and raised in Hong Kong who is very passionate about pushing for local democracy. Sadly he is disappointed by his own city and this place is getting more and more unrecognisable as time passes by. It has turned into a police state governed by CCP style lies and propaganda, disrespectful of rule of law, void of justice, highly intolerant of the smallest criticism and even lacking compassion for its people.
 

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Discussion Starter #199 (Edited)

12 pro-democratic candidates have been disqualified from running and more to come. The Legislative election has always been the highest level city-wide free and open election and now it has come to an end too thanks to the government officials and CCP.
 

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Hong Kong is finished, sorry to say but you need to deal with it, and it'll become worse and worse with time. So it's either get the hell out or assume life in a totalitarian regime. Sadly, no third choice.
 
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