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This is so well said I wanted it quoted and posted again. It should be the sticky on this match, is reality and exactly how it was.
Overall story is Novak outchoked Medvedev. Basically the mental giant of our sport, the supposed super clutch player was not clutch at all when it really mattered. Basically the reason I keep bringing that up is.. people really criticized Federer for 2019 Wimbledon finals.. that he is mentally weak. It is actually same show here too. Novak was chasing Federer, Federer was the hunted most of their careers. Now, Novak is 'the hunted'..
 

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..people really criticized Federer for 2019 Wimbledon finals.. that he is mentally weak. It is actually same show here too. Novak was chasing Federer, Federer was the hunted most of their careers. Now, Novak is 'the hunted'..
Nole and Roger are the only players who came close to winning #21 so far. Nole was only one match away. Roger was only one point away. Nole still has a good chance to get to 21 and so does Rafa. But I do hope the next final will be a tight 5 setter...
 

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Just now able to watch a replay of the match. Congrats to Medvedev for becoming the first younger player to beat Djokovic/Nadal in a Slam Final.

Lots of mention about the pressure on Djokovic, but Medvedev also had pressure:
• Didn't want his name in the history books as the guy Novak defeated for glory
• To not put in another disappointing performance like in Australia
• Not wanting to go 0-3 in Slam finals (but now having to face someone 27-0 in majors this year)
• To live up to the expectations of a #2 who's in his prime and nine years younger than Novak
• Fighting a raucous New York crowd who's paid to see once-in-a-lifetime history

Medvedev said that he learned from Australia, and he turned the tables on Djokovic, beating him at his own game. Great on serve, return, long rallies, and sending the ball to Djokovic's shoes when he approached the net. Has now won 4 of the last 6 against Novak. No doubt a great confidence booster for Medvedev next time they meet.
Congrats also to Djokovic who admirably dealt with all that enormous pressure.
 

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Just now able to watch a replay of the match. Congrats to Medvedev for becoming the first younger player to beat Djokovic/Nadal in a Slam Final.

Lots of mention about the pressure on Djokovic, but Medvedev also had pressure:
• Didn't want his name in the history books as the guy Novak defeated for glory
• To not put in another disappointing performance like in Australia
• Not wanting to go 0-3 in Slam finals (but now having to face someone 27-0 in majors this year)
• To live up to the expectations of a #2 who's in his prime and nine years younger than Novak
• Fighting a raucous New York crowd who's paid to see once-in-a-lifetime history

Medvedev said that he learned from Australia, and he turned the tables on Djokovic, beating him at his own game. Great on serve, return, long rallies, and sending the ball to Djokovic's shoes when he approached the net. Has now won 4 of the last 6 against Novak. No doubt a great confidence booster for Medvedev next time they meet.
Congrats also to Djokovic who admirably dealt with all that enormous pressure.
Yes, I watched one of Med's interviews, he said he was more confident in AO than in USO, having 20 winning streaks and beating top 10 guys numerously out of them. So he thought it would be enough to play what he had been doing, but he apparently got destroyed by Nole. So he realised that he needed to do more than what he's done to beat Djokovic, in which he fairly succeeded.
 

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Djokovic has been mentally weak a few times now. Olympics to Del Potro, Zverev and now the biggest of them all when it mattered most.
 

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Novak was still very good in the final. Unfortunately the only person who could beat him also got to the final. I never thought Zverev could take Novak to 5 sets. And also all these lost sets in the previous matches were an indication that he was not up to his best coming to NY. But in the final he was zeroed in as much as he could. Sadly so was Medvedev.
 

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Overall story is Novak outchoked Medvedev. Basically the mental giant of our sport, the supposed super clutch player was not clutch at all when it really mattered. Basically the reason I keep bringing that up is.. people really criticized Federer for 2019 Wimbledon finals.. that he is mentally weak. It is actually same show here too. Novak was chasing Federer, Federer was the hunted most of their careers. Now, Novak is 'the hunted'..
And how do you compare the pressure between getting just #21 and getting #21 + CYGS? Obviously the pressure in the latter case is a bit higher, isn't it?
Then I have no more questions and this is not an excuse, but at least an explanation why even Djokovic choked.

Or with other words: Laver had the luck to play a peer who was a mug in big grass finals (H2H 3-0 to Laver in grass slams) in his CYGS trial match, while Djokovic played the next best hardcourter who's been better than him on these North American courts for the last 2 years. A bit unlucky, but belongs to the whole picture, even if you can play only who is in front of you, by power of the draw and the top players' current competition.

Djokovic has been mentally weak a few times now. Olympics to Del Potro, Zverev and now the biggest of them all when it mattered most.
In Olympics vs Del Potro he was injured... and always had bad luck and underperformed there generally. Not sure why you need to bring it in this result thread, other than for trolling purposes.
 

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And how do you compare the pressure between getting just #21 and getting #21 + CYGS? Obviously the pressure in the latter case is a bit higher, isn't it?
Then I have no more questions and this is not an excuse, but at least an explanation why even Djokovic choked.

Or with other words: Laver had the luck to play a peer who was a mug in big grass finals (H2H 3-0 to Laver in grass slams) in his CYGS trial match, while Djokovic played the next best hardcourter who's been better than him on these North American courts for the last 2 years. A bit unlucky, but belongs to the whole picture, even if you can play only who is in front of you, by power of the draw and the top players' current competition.



In Olympics vs Del Potro he was injured... and always had bad luck and underperformed there. Not sure why you need to bring it in this result thread, other than for trolling purposes.
Please stop making excuses... Djokovic choked big time at the Olympics and the USO. This is much worse than Federer's 40-15 where it was already a miracle to bring that match to the limits at 38 years old.
 

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And how do you compare the pressure between getting just #21 and getting #21 + CYGS? Obviously the pressure in the latter case is a bit higher, isn't it?
Then I have no more questions and this is not an excuse, but at least an explanation why even Djokovic choked.

Or with other words: Laver had the luck to play a peer who was a mug in big grass finals (H2H 3-0 to Laver in grass slams) in his CYGS trial match, while Djokovic played the next best hardcourter who's been better than him on these North American courts for the last 2 years. A bit unlucky, but belongs to the whole picture, even if you can play only who is in front of you, by power of the draw and the top players' current competition.



In Olympics vs Del Potro he was injured... and always had bad luck and underperformed there generally. Not sure why you need to bring it in this result thread, other than for trolling purposes.

Of course pressure is higher, no denying that. See, both choked. Federer's choke was at match point. Novak.. did not show up to the match.. a higher level of choke. The point I was trying to make is: the bad rap that Fed got on this site.. after 2019, as if his career was wasted.. even from his own fans.. when you consider all the greats.. it is really not that bad. Yes, Novak put himself in a position to be even talked about it. Federer put himself in a position at the age of 38 to compete against GOAT or one of GOATs.. To even get that far is also actually really great. People talked as if Federer was playing against some wall.. or a school kid and lost, it was Novak Djokovic..

Look, most my posts past 2-3 days have been critical of Novak, but I highly respect his accomplishments, and his stature as GOAT since Laver, but it was more directed towards - people who put Fed down simply for even trying and accomplishing almost impossible at 38. Fed was portrayed as if he is mentally one of the worst players, and that is really not true.. His style of risky tennis that also after age 35, even more risky makes it look that way. Guy is as good mentally like Novak.. maybe not as tough as Rafa. And then, there was this comment of Fed won because of weak era.. Fed raised the bar.. That whole story is spinned to make him look bad. Having the pressure in finals is common, and this was historic moment too.. but imagine going against Novak, when he is chasing your record in finals.. is that not a pressure? Federer has always been "the hunted" in this trio equation until now. They were chasing his records, titles, chasing his image basically. Federer actually had to deal with this pressure from younger GOATs more than 10 years now..
 

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Of course pressure is higher, no denying that. See, both choked. Federer's choke was at match point. Novak.. did not show up to the match.. a higher level of choke. The point I was trying to make is: the bad rap that Fed got on this site.. after 2019, as if his career was wasted.. even from his own fans.. when you consider all the greats.. it is really not that bad. Yes, Novak put himself in a position to be even talked about it. Federer put himself in a position at the age of 38 to compete against GOAT or one of GOATs.. To even get that far is also actually really great. People talked as if Federer was playing against some wall.. or a school kid and lost, it was Novak Djokovic..

Look, most my posts past 2-3 days have been critical of Novak, but I highly respect his accomplishments, and his stature as GOAT since Laver, but it was more directed towards - people who put Fed down simply for even trying and accomplishing almost impossible at 38. Fed was portrayed as if he is mentally one of the worst players, and that is really not true.. His style of risky tennis that also after age 35, even more risky makes it look that way. Guy is as good mentally like Novak.. maybe not as tough as Rafa. And then, there was this comment of Fed won because of weak era.. Fed raised the bar.. That whole story is spinned to make him look bad. Having the pressure in finals is common, and this was historic moment too.. but imagine going against Novak, when he is chasing your record in finals.. is that not a pressure? Federer has always been "the hunted" in this trio equation until now. They were chasing his records, titles, chasing his image basically. Federer actually had to deal with this pressure from younger GOATs more than 10 years now..
For me the mental GOAT race was decided after the fall of 2014/2015 season:
1. Djokovic
2. Nadal (very close to each other, Nadal better at his career start, but worse towards his career end, after 2018)


3. Federer
This is based how Fed also lost sometimes to journeymen and his big historic chokes in slams. It's not a shame to acknowledge that Federer is the most talented game/skills wise from Big 3, but mentally the weakest. He proved it many times in tight matches. Of course where he ruled the match-up or played much better on the day, he didn't need to prove it...
 

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For me the mental GOAT race was decided after the fall of 2014/2015 season:
1. Djokovic
2. Nadal (very close to each other, Nadal better at his career start, but worse towards his career end, after 2018)


3. Federer
This is based how Fed also lost sometimes to journeymen and his big historic chokes in slams. It's not a shame to acknowledge that Federer is the most talented game/skills wise from Big 3, but mentally the weakest. He proved it many times in tight matches. Of course where he ruled the match-up or played much better on the day, he didn't need to prove it...

Chokes to journeymen? I can't think of chokes.. especially at least until he was 34/35. After that, we all know things go downhill.. journeymen played lights out sure, same as any other top player. What chokes are you talking about that is not against big three?
 

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For me the mental GOAT race was decided after the fall of 2014/2015 season:
1. Djokovic
2. Nadal (very close to each other, Nadal better at his career start, but worse towards his career end, after 2018)


3. Federer
This is based how Fed also lost sometimes to journeymen and his big historic chokes in slams. It's not a shame to acknowledge that Federer is the most talented game/skills wise from Big 3, but mentally the weakest. He proved it many times in tight matches. Of course where he ruled the match-up or played much better on the day, he didn't need to prove it...
Did you not see what a nervous wreck Djokovic was from the first ball to the last? It was staggering. I've never seen a top sportsperson so mentally shot. Even when golfers get the yips, you generally only see it with their putting.
 

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Even after Federer lost W19 he still beat Djokovic in straight sets at the World Tour Finals and denied him the year end No1 and equalling the WTF record.

At 38 years old.

For me the mental GOAT race was decided after the fall of 2014/2015 season:
1. Djokovic
2. Nadal (very close to each other, Nadal better at his career start, but worse towards his career end, after 2018)


3. Federer
This is based how Fed also lost sometimes to journeymen and his big historic chokes in slams. It's not a shame to acknowledge that Federer is the most talented game/skills wise from Big 3, but mentally the weakest. He proved it many times in tight matches. Of course where he ruled the match-up or played much better on the day, he didn't need to prove it...
 

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Chokes to journeymen? I can't think of chokes.. especially at least until he was 34/35. After that, we all know things go downhill.. journeymen played lights out sure, same as any other top player. What chokes are you talking about that is not against big three?
At least 2 are memorable: 2013 WB vs Stakhovsky and 2017 Dubai vs Donskoy (won't bring up Canas as that was really a hard match-up for Federer). There are some others, but these 2 are the most widely-known.
 

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At least 2 are memorable: 2013 WB vs Stakhovsky and 2017 Dubai vs Donskoy (won't bring up Canas as that was really a hard match-up for Federer). There are some others, but these 2 are the most widely-known.
I think those matches are more of lights out tennis by others too.. those stuff happen.. remember Rafa vs Rosol.. I don't think those are chokes.. it is more opponent surprising them and kind of lack of form etc. Chokes are more like as we know 2019.. or 2009 AUS open... more of not playing well despite being in form, purely because of brain freeze. I think, in his prime are early 30s.. besides against Rafa and Novak.. there really are not many.. there is a reason he used to be considered a mental giant before the other two took over.

Even after 35.. most of the time opponent has to out hit him or out play him.. unless it is one of big three.. where he lost it from a winning position too.. I am thinking of all match ups like Murray, Wawrnika, Delpo... guy really did not choke with anyone else.

Well, I guess - we see it differently.. agree to disagree maybe.. I consider Rafa as top notch mentally.. and Novak and Roger in same category. To me, Novak shines with his consistency and the physical aspect of it.. Federer with his skills, touch, mixing up course.. Rafa - actually lacks some tools these two have like easy service winning points.. works harder.. but still fights super hard.

It is actually the pressure of being hunted. When we think about it Rafa has not defended (iother than clay) like Fed and Novak did.. maybe that is pressure too.. but it is also injuries.. not sure.
 

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I like your analysis, plus this one too.


So, overall I just hope for new winners in men’s tennis. (If you care about tennis and not your big 3 fave).

I think those matches are more of lights out tennis by others too.. those stuff happen.. remember Rafa vs Rosol.. I don't think those are chokes.. it is more opponent surprising them and kind of lack of form etc. Chokes are more like as we know 2019.. or 2009 AUS open... more of not playing well despite being in form, purely because of brain freeze. I think, in his prime are early 30s.. besides against Rafa and Novak.. there really are not many.. there is a reason he used to be considered a mental giant before the other two took over.

Even after 35.. most of the time opponent has to out hit him or out play him.. unless it is one of big three.. where he lost it from a winning position too.. I am thinking of all match ups like Murray, Wawrnika, Delpo... guy really did not choke with anyone else.

Well, I guess - we see it differently.. agree to disagree maybe.. I consider Rafa as top notch mentally.. and Novak and Roger in same category. To me, Novak shines with his consistency and the physical aspect of it.. Federer with his skills, touch, mixing up course.. Rafa - actually lacks some tools these two have like easy service winning points.. works harder.. but still fights super hard.

It is actually the pressure of being hunted. When we think about it Rafa has not defended (iother than clay) like Fed and Novak did.. maybe that is pressure too.. but it is also injuries.. not sure.
 

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I think those matches are more of lights out tennis by others too.. those stuff happen.. remember Rafa vs Rosol.. I don't think those are chokes.. it is more opponent surprising them and kind of lack of form etc. Chokes are more like as we know 2019.. or 2009 AUS open... more of not playing well despite being in form, purely because of brain freeze. I think, in his prime are early 30s.. besides against Rafa and Novak.. there really are not many.. there is a reason he used to be considered a mental giant before the other two took over.

Even after 35.. most of the time opponent has to out hit him or out play him.. unless it is one of big three.. where he lost it from a winning position too.. I am thinking of all match ups like Murray, Wawrnika, Delpo... guy really did not choke with anyone else.

Well, I guess - we see it differently.. agree to disagree maybe.. I consider Rafa as top notch mentally.. and Novak and Roger in same category. To me, Novak shines with his consistency and the physical aspect of it.. Federer with his skills, touch, mixing up course.. Rafa - actually lacks some tools these two have like easy service winning points.. works harder.. but still fights super hard.

It is actually the pressure of being hunted. When we think about it Rafa has not defended (iother than clay) like Fed and Novak did.. maybe that is pressure too.. but it is also injuries.. not sure.
Agree to disagree here.
For me Nadal was always the mental giant on clay, he won so many matches there when not even playing well, but somehow eked out the win... on hardcourt not so much. On grass, only in 2007-10. Yeah, he came awfully close in 2018 to reach the final again, but it seemed like an outlier in this regard for the last 10 years.
Djokovic, on the other hand, had on all surfaces so many surprising victories, coming from behind or just proving himself even in difficult match-ups. Of course, more after he became 2.0, but he had had some after 2007 too.
Federer was generally also very good... against lesser players, even against Top 10 most of the time. Still his stats (by far the most lost matches from MP up among top players, losing matches vs players outside of Top 50) prove that he is far from the mental giant some want him seem to be. It's not even necessarily choking, Federer is the best frontrunner in tennis, better than Sampras used to be back in 90's. It is that Federer is often worse coming back from behind then Djokovic/Nadal... he had some memorable comebacks like vs Cilic in 2016 WB from 0-2 sets down, but they are rather the exception from this phenomenon.
 

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It’s not over yet. Let’s see how long Novaxx continues to play and if he’s willing to take the losses and worse stats as a result as he gets older.

The stats will go down.

I mean do you think he will still be on tour at 38 or 40?

Best to retire now?

See The Only Case Federer Has Left in the Men’s Tennis GOAT Debate

Agree to disagree here.
For me Nadal was always the mental giant on clay, he won so many matches there when not even playing well, but somehow eked out the win... on hardcourt not so much. On grass, only in 2007-10. Yeah, he came awfully close in 2018 to reach the final again, but it seemed like an outlier in this regard for the last 10 years.
Djokovic, on the other hand, had on all surfaces so many surprising victories, coming from behind or just proving himself even in difficult match-ups. Of course, more after he became 2.0, but he had had some after 2007 too.
Federer was generally also very good... against lesser players, even against Top 10 most of the time. Still his stats (by far the most lost matches from MP up among top players, losing matches vs players outside of Top 50) prove that he is far from the mental giant some want him seem to be. It's not even necessarily choking, Federer is the best frontrunner in tennis, better than Sampras used to be back in 90's. It is that Federer is often worse coming back from behind then Djokovic/Nadal... he had some memorable comebacks like vs Cilic in 2016 WB from 0-2 sets down, but they are rather the exception from this phenomenon.
 
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