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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I couldn't quite understand why/how the U.S lawmakers have the right to rule on a case which does not involve them. Does this constitute changing "history"? They don't have the right to do that either, though.

I was also not sure what the scale of mass murders have to be to be described as a genocide. It was a terrible thing that happened to the Armenians, but I am not sure why it has come up suddenly after so long? And what are the ramifications-- does this mean repatration of money/other things to descendants of those killed? What is the reason that this has to be passed in a US House?

Does anyone (esp. from Turkey and/or Armenia) know more?
 

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I think it was just one of those symbolic resolutions. I'm not sure what, if any, effect it will have but never fear, it looks like the Pres won't be signing it anyway. Doesn't want to offend Turkey right now-needs to keep bases there to fly supplies into Iraq.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I think it was just one of those symbolic resolutions. I'm not sure what, if any, effect it will have but never fear, it looks like the Pres won't be signing it anyway.
That probably won't matter -- about his not signing.

The damage is done. It has been publicly aired that the representatives of the US people think this to be the case.
 

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I'm dont' know that much about what happened, but if there were mass killings of the Armenian people, why shouldn't that come out? Should we not talk about it? I'm not sure why its come up now, but talking about why something like this happens can maybe help to prevent a similar event in the future. :shrug:

There is bit of hypocracy to it all though as the US has not ever formerly passed anything admiting to how we systematically tried to rid our own country of the Native Americans or apologizing for allowing slavery. (my source for this info is the Daily Show-Ironically Jon Stewart is more reliable than most of the "real" news :lol: )
 

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Really shortened version of this:
Armenians say that during WWI (more precisely in 1915), the Turkish government organized and carried out a systematic genocide against ethnic Armenians living in Ottoman territory, killing as many as 1.5 million of them and displacing 500,000. Numerous documents, reports, photographs, historians (including the person who coined the term genocide :p), and around 20 foreign governments agree/attest to this and have condemned the events as genocide. Turkey has a different version of events claiming that the killings are exaggerated and were done in the context of the war and also that just as many Turks died as a result. Armenians have fought for almost a century now to get the events recognized as Genocide and have the international community condemn Turkey.

Every 4 years around election time, the US congress 1. brings this up, 2. passes a resolution, 3. takes it out to the Congress floor where it is routinely rejected b/c Turkey is a major US ally and a strategic place since it is a moderate Muslim member of the NATO. We are in stage 2 right now; it's nothing major really :shrug:: look for stage 3 now in the coming weeks. This is mainly political: the Congress is just appeasing the Armenian lobby before elections. It's obviously a painful issue for US Armenians; if someone questions the Holocaust he's a madman, but if someone questions the Armenian genocide (which is just as well documented), they are just exercising their right to free speech.
Anyway that's the short version :p.
In the interest of full disclosure: I am Armenian; I tried being as unbiased as I can. I could write books on this...:lol:
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks MarieS.

The Armenians should lobby the UN or some entity more globally respected to come out with a statement. Asking for the US's help is almost a step in the wrong direction seeing as how much wrath the US receives in the middle east region, and how little that region even cares about what the US stance on this is.
 

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Thanks for the history lesson MarieS. You're account seemed unbiased to me.

So why doesn't some other country come to the forefront of this issue then? I don't doubt it comes to the floor at a politically expediant time for many politicians but for all our faults, at least some of the US congress is trying. We're so terrible but where are all the morally superior countries when it comes to taking a stand? This happened almost 100 years ago yet its still questioned? Seems like the whole world has ignored this issue.
 

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Thanks for the history lesson MarieS. You're account seemed unbiased to me.

So why doesn't some other country come to the forefront of this issue then? I don't doubt it comes to the floor at a politically expediant time for many politicians but for all our faults, at least some of the US congress is trying. We're so terrible but where are all the morally superior countries when it comes to taking a stand? This happened almost 100 years ago yet its still questioned? Seems like the whole world has ignored this issue.
According to wikipedia,

Countries officially recognizing the Armenian Genocide include:

Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Chile, Cyprus, France, Greece, Italy, Lebanon, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, Switzerland, Uruguay, Vatican City and Venezuela.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_the_Armenian_Genocide
 

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Thanks for the info, Marie.

The unfortunate thing about this is that not enough is being made to seperate this horrible piece of history from the current Turkish government. No one alive is responsible for what happened in 1915, and I don't think any of these resolutions aim to blame Turkey for it. I think the ultimate goal is a more accurate historical record and I wish there was some way for the Turkish government to come to terms with it so that this annual struggle could end and everyone involved could move on to other things. Germany seems to have been able to do this, if I'm not mistaken.

And yes, Turkey and anyone else has every right to point the fingers at the US and bring up the slaughter of Native Americans in this country's history. It is shameful that subject is glossed over in so many text books, or even worse, treated as some type of isolated, rogue incidents.
 

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WillyCañas;6126818 said:
According to wikipedia,

Countries officially recognizing the Armenian Genocide include:

Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Chile, Cyprus, France, Greece, Italy, Lebanon, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, Switzerland, Uruguay, Vatican City and Venezuela.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_the_Armenian_Genocide
Thanks for correcting me :) I should have done more homework before I went off.

I still fail to see how the putting this issue in the spotlight is wrong though, other than its the US doing it right now and anything the US does must be wrong. There are more countries not on the list than on so a debate on it is still needed.
 

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Thanks for correcting me :) I should have done more homework before I went off.

I still fail to see how the putting this issue in the spotlight is wrong though, other than its the US doing it right now. There are more countries not on the list than on so a debate on it is still needed.
Its not wrong, its good. Its only bad for the current political interests of the US Government.
 

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There's a very interesting independent movie on the subject. I had to do some clearance work on it for defamation issues a little over a year ago, so I watched the whole thing, but it ended up getting some decent press. the woman who made it is Armenian and also just a really nice lady. It was done in conjunction with System of a Down and is pretty well-done. It's obviously biased but it's still a good movie for those who are interested.

Marie, you might be particularly interested in it if you haven't seen it.
http://www.screamersmovie.com/
although i'm not sure how you'd get a hold of it, not sure it is available on DVD or anything.

The whole thing is indescribable, and it just seems so ridiculous to not pass a symbolic resolution. But at the same time, we live in such a tricky world where all the implications have to be considered and I don't really blame people who are afraid of upsetting Turkey.

The unfortunate thing about this is that not enough is being made to seperate this horrible piece of history from the current Turkish government. No one alive is responsible for what happened in 1915, and I don't think any of these resolutions aim to blame Turkey for it. I think the ultimate goal is a more accurate historical record and I wish there was some way for the Turkish government to come to terms with it so that this annual struggle could end and everyone involved could move on to other things. Germany seems to have been able to do this, if I'm not mistaken.
The problem is, and I think you've said it yourself, is that the current Turkish Government refuses to recognize it. So it is hard to separate it. Even if the people who caused it are no longer alive, one can't help but think the thoughts that caused it still are. When you see a country like Germany, which is so conscious of distancing itself from what happened, instead of denying it and maintaining that hostility, it has accepted it and used it as a positive, to educate its people and to promote tolerance. Of course, the US made horrific mistakes with Native Americans and it may not be explored properly in textbooks, but we don't deny our past, there is not a mass governmental denial of what happened. They may be insufficient, but things have been done to at least attempt to remedy it. From my limited knowledge, it seems that Turkey has no interest in doing any of this, let alone even admitting on a base level that this happened. And I believe this plays a humongous role in why this issue is still so contentious. If the Turkish Government could just admit it, accept it, and move on, the US Government wouldn't have to be afraid of upsetting it.

Obviously the issue is very sad and complex especially with so many awful things going on right now in Africa. It's all just saddening and there are no easy answers :awww:
 

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90 years for the US to recognize the Armenian genocide, so does this mean that by 2100 we'll recognize Darfur? :rolleyes:
 

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I agree in one point. Bush is experienced person in genocide ( he commites it from 4 years in Iraq and Afghanistan )so called practising genocide and he knows the case. After ending his career he should get a office of retired genocide by UN. He would compare all cases of genocide with his activity and on this ground he would issue ( this crime was genocide and this not ).
By the way. Does he look back in time or go forward? Maybe in 10 years he encounters own genocide in Iraq and Afghanistan. In any event USA - genocide was in the far and near past and of course in the present times too.
For instance: 2 or 3 days ago was an atack on american base in Iraq ( american bases in Iraq are redundant, they are not attacked in USA and they should understand it and leave this poor country). And what did american occupational soldiers do: they killed in the revenge ( because it can be explained only as revenge ) 15 civilians - women and children - it was called - fight against al-qaida. It is massacre too and such massacre is called genocide. It is the fact. And such american actions ( massacres ) take place from 4 years there. They kidnapped an Iranian journalist in Afghanistan, they tortured him and threatend that they will kill him if he makes reportage of Afghanistan. It is crime and violation of human rights.
 

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They should accept Latinamerica's Genocide next year... wait, it was supported by US goverment :(
 

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The outrage on this issue is largely misplaced :shrug:; important thing here isn't that the international community isn't discussing the Armenian Genocide now, the thing to focus on is that it was largely ignored it while it was happening. As MLK said (and this is often quoted when speaking about this issue): in the end we'll remember not the actions of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

The unfortunate thing about this is that not enough is being made to seperate this horrible piece of history from the current Turkish government. No one alive is responsible for what happened in 1915, and I don't think any of these resolutions aim to blame Turkey for it. I think the ultimate goal is a more accurate historical record and I wish there was some way for the Turkish government to come to terms with it so that this annual struggle could end and everyone involved could move on to other things. Germany seems to have been able to do this, if I'm not mistaken.
The Turkish government is the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire. Also, as Deb mentioned, it's hard to separate the two when modern Turkey has done little in the way of showing remorse. It's not just the fact that they refuse to acknowledge it as genocide; they have a systematic campaign to deny it. Their history books claim that the Genocide is myth dreamed up by bitter Armenians; some Turkish historians/people go as far as to suggest that Armenians were actually the ones who killed thousands of Turks and committed Genocide as the Empire was collapsing. Of course we are entering the realm of impossibility here: the notion of an unarmed, powerless minority committing genocide is ridiculous at best, but this is actually a widely held belief in a lot of Turkey. There is a memorial to Turks who lost their lives as a result of the Genocide and it's actually on historically Armenian land (no, you can't make this shit up if you tried :eek:). It is amazing, absolutely amazing that a modern state spends millions and millions of dollars annually to purposefully falsify an enormous portion of its recent history and this is considered OK.

they killed in the revenge ( because it can be explained only as revenge ) 15 civilians - women and children - it was called - fight against al-qaida. It is massacre too and such massacre is called genocide. It is the fact.
You must not be very well versed in what Genocide is :).

edit: Deb, I've seen Screamers, it is absolutely amazing :worship:.
 
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The outrage on this issue is largely misplaced :shrug:; important thing here isn't that the international community isn't discussing the Armenian Genocide now, the thing to focus on is that it was largely ignored it while it was happening. As MLK said (and this is often quoted when speaking about this issue): in the end we'll remember not the actions of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Very excellent point.

It's not just the fact that they refuse to acknowledge it as genocide; they have a systematic campaign to deny it.
I thought this was the case, but as I didn't remember the details of the movie very well, nor did I even know how accurate the movie is at all, I didn't want to just accuse without fact, so thanks for mentioning that. People are actually punished for speaking out about it, is that correct?
edit: Deb, I've seen Screamers, it is absolutely amazing :worship:.
Ohhhhhh that's good to hear that it got out there :) the filmmaker was sooo passionate about it that I was hoping it would succeed at some level :) Something I liked about it is that it was not myopic, it addressed the connection to the current horrors going on and why the need to address what happened in Armenia really isn't just symbolic as it appears at first glance.
 

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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/washington/17cong.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

Support Wanes in House for Genocide Vote

WASHINGTON, Oct. 16 — Worried about antagonizing Turkish leaders, House members from both parties have begun to withdraw their support from a resolution backed by the Democratic leadership that would condemn as genocide the mass killings of Armenians nearly a century ago.

Almost a dozen lawmakers had shifted against the measure in a 24-hour period ending Tuesday night, accelerating a sudden exodus that has cast deep doubt over the measure’s prospects. Some made clear that they were heeding warnings from the White House, which has called the measure dangerously provocative, and from the Turkish government, which has said House passage would prompt Turkey to reconsider its ties to the United States, including logistical support for the Iraq war.

Until Tuesday, the measure appeared on a path to House passage, with strong support from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. It was approved last week by the House Foreign Affairs Committee. But by Tuesday evening, a group of senior House Democrats had made it known that they were planning to ask the leadership to drop plans for a vote on the measure.

“Turkey obviously feels they are getting poked in the eye over something that happened a century ago and maybe this isn’t a good time to be doing that,” said Representative Allen Boyd, a Florida Democrat who dropped his sponsorship of the resolution on Monday night.

Others who took the same action said that, while they deplored the mass killings of Armenians by the Ottoman Empire, the modern-day consequences in the Middle East could not be overlooked.

“We simply cannot allow the grievances of the past, as real as they may be, to in any way derail our efforts to prevent further atrocities for future history books,” said Representative Wally Herger, Republican of California.

Representative Mike Ross, Democrat of Arkansas, said, “I think it is a good resolution and horrible timing.”

The Turkish government has lobbied heavily against the resolution, which is nonbinding and largely symbolic. But lawmakers attributed the erosion in support mainly to fears about a potential Turkish decision to deny American access to critical military facilities in that nation and its threat to move forces into northern Iraq.

“This vote came face to face with the reality on the ground in that region of the world,” said Representative Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, the chairman of the House Democratic Caucus and an opponent of the resolution.

The Bush administration and top American generals have been vocal in warning that passage of the resolution could cause great harm to the American war effort in Iraq and have put significant pressure on Republicans to abandon their support for the measure. President Bush called Ms. Pelosi on Tuesday and asked her to prevent a floor vote.

“The president and the speaker exchanged candid views on the subject and the speaker explained the strong bipartisan support in the House for the resolution,” said Brendan Daly, a spokesman for Ms. Pelosi.

The Democratic leadership was examining the exact level of that support to gauge its next step, but lawmakers and officials said it was now unclear whether the resolution could be approved, given Republican resistance and Democratic defections. “We will have to determine where everyone is,” said Representative Steny H. Hoyer of Maryland, the majority leader.

Ms. Pelosi, who has promised a vote on the resolution if it cleared the committee, said she was leaving it to its chief backers to round up votes. “I have never known a count,” she said.

Backers of the resolution, which has the fervent support of the Armenian-American community, described the shift as slight and attributed it to the intense lobbying by the Turkish government, the administration and their allies. They said they would try to change the minds of some of those who were wavering.

“This is what happens when you are up against a very sophisticated multimillion-dollar campaign,” said Representative Brad Sherman, Democrat of California, who chided the Turkish government. “Since when has it become fashionable for friends to threaten friends?”

But he acknowledged there was little margin of error for backers of the resolution, which had once boasted 225 co-sponsors. “If the vote were held today, I would not want to bet my house on the outcome,” he said.

Mr. Sherman and others noted that at the start of the war Turkey had refused to let American forces operate from its territory and that its intentions toward the northern border of Iraq clearly captured the attention of Congress.

American military officials in Iraq and in Washington said Tuesday they were concerned about possible Turkish military raids into northern Iraq against the Kurdish Workers Party, an ethnic separatist movement also known as the P.K.K.

At the moment, they said, they did not see many indications that the Turkish military was preparing for a large-scale incursion into the insurgents’ mountainous strongholds and expressed hope that diplomatic efforts under way between Iraqi and Turkish officials would ease the crisis, which was sparked by a wave of attacks in eastern Turkey that its government has blamed on the separatists.

“We see no signs that there’s anything imminent by Turkey,” said one senior military officer, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was discussing military contingency planning. “So there’s time for the diplomacy to work for a few more days, if not weeks.” But, he added, the situation could get “ugly” if Turkey sent troops across the border and they clashed with Kurdish militias or Iraqi forces.

The biggest fear, several former officials said, is that Turkish forces could push past the border and head for Kirkuk. Such a move could force Iraq to respond and the United States to mediate between two allies, and decide whether to intervene. Such a crisis could also draw in Iran, which has also had growing problems with Kurdish groups crossing into its territory from Iraq.

In addition to the potential movement of Turkish forces, opponents of the resolution continued to point to Turkey’s role as a staging area for moving American military supplies into Iraq.

“This happened a long time ago and I don’t know whether it was a massacre or a genocide, that is beside the point,” said Representative John P. Murtha, the Pennsylvania Democrat who is urging Ms. Pelosi to keep the resolution from the floor. “The point is, we have to deal with today’s world.”

While the resolution enjoyed more than enough support to pass earlier this year, about two dozen lawmakers have removed their names from the official list of sponsors in recent weeks as the vote grew more likely and the reservations grew more pronounced.

“I think there was genocide in Turkey in 1915 but I am gravely concerned about the timing,” said Representative Jane Harman, a California Democrat. She said she would remain a co-sponsor of the resolution but at the moment would oppose it reached the floor.

Representative Doug Lamborn, a Colorado Republican who dropped his backing on Tuesday, said: “Nothing changes the fact that mass killings and unspeakable acts of brutality occurred. However, passing this nonbinding resolution at this critical time would be a destabilizing action when the United States needs the help of its allies, including Turkey, in fighting the global war on terror.”
 

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Really shortened version of this:
Armenians say that during WWI (more precisely in 1915), the Turkish government organized and carried out a systematic genocide against ethnic Armenians living in Ottoman territory, killing as many as 1.5 million of them and displacing 500,000.
:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

The worst part is, when you meet people who were displaced or their families were, that they are STILL looking for family members :awww:

A guy my dad knows in Rome met his first cousin somewhere by accident, on a business trip. They didn't even know of eacher's existance before they started talking about their families.

As if I needed this thread to remind me why, if Turkey gets anywhere near the EU, I'll be at the protests :eek:
 

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Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer mis-managed this big-time. It finally dawned on ol' Nancy that alienating an important ally like Turkey in the middle of campaign season would be handing the Republicans candidates a huge gift, and now she's backtracking like crazy. Turkey played hard ball and won.

I feel bad for the Armenian-Americans who got their hopes up, and now have the rug pulled out from under them. Pelosi and Hoyer should have been upfront with them and their House supporters from the start, and said that, while they agree with them on the merits of the issue, affronting Turkey was not something they were prepared to do.
 
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