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Discussion Starter #1
21 Atp events are played on clay
8 in Grass
36 events are played on HC

So learn some maths.

32,3 % of tournaments are played in clay, so Roughly 1/3 of all tournaments.
12,31 % in clay
55,3% on HC

I see this argument often exist to discredit nadal achievements dominating only small part of the calendar year, when Clay is roughly 1/3 of the whole tour.
 

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75% of Grand Slams are not played on clay,as well as close to 70% of all Masters 1000 tournaments.

Nadal does dominate that part of the year,but he's been pretty solid in other parts.I think 15gs finals outside of clay,7 titles which isn't too bad.
 

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Yeah but put together the Masters and Majors, and you get a picture how the distribution is for top players, who play that and a few more 500's and one 250.
 

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It's a good point but someone should do the maths and weight it by the tournament category. My guess would be clay weights 28-29%, grass 7-8% and the rest on hard court
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
75% of Grand Slams are not played on clay,as well as close to 70% of all Masters 1000 tournaments.

Nadal does dominate that part of the year,but he's been pretty solid in other parts.I think 15gs finals outside of clay,7 titles which isn't too bad.
Still , they make an argument for HC.
Out of 4 Slams, 1 WTF and 9 Master tournaments, only 4 are on clay. 28%
1 is on grass. 7%
9 is on HC. 64%

Nobody cares about Mickey Mouse ATP 500 and 250 tournaments.
Federer 49/103 titles are atp 500 and 250 combined. Isnt roger fault, he cannot prepare for Grass season/Wimbledon in an imaginary m1000 held on grass..
 

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Discussion Starter #7
It's a good point but someone should do the maths and weight it by the tournament category. My guess would be clay weights 28-29%, grass 7-8% and the rest on hard court
Well that is right, I think the best good thing to do would be to change one m1000 from HC to Grass and the WTF should be played on Carpet. I also would add additional events in glass and /or wood
 

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Federer 49/103 titles are atp 500 and 250 combined. Isnt roger fault, he cannot prepare for Grass season/Wimbledon in an imaginary m1000 held on grass..
Not really a bad stat.Nadal also has something like 30 tournaments from those categories out of his 84.Winning any title can't be a bad thing.
 

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Federer 49/103 titles are atp 500 and 250 combined.
They sure are. That's why the "total number of ATP titles" statistics is pure BS. 24 titles at ATP 500, 25 titles at ATP 250.

Compare that to Nadal, with 20 titles at ATP 500 and only 9 at ATP 250.

And then you have Djokovic with 13 ATP 500 and 9 ATP 250.

Big titles (Slam + WTF + Masters + Olympics): Djokovic: 56, Nadal: 55, Federer: 54. Next on the list: (drum roll please) Lendl with 37.

Kind of puts into perspective the dominance of the Big 3.
 

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Not really a bad stat.Nadal also has something like 30 tournaments from those categories out of his 84.Winning any title can't be a bad thing.
Sure, winning a title is not a bad thing, certainly much better than losing.

But touting 103 >> 84 and 103 >> 78 as some sort of monumental achievement when nearly half of those 103 titles are Mickey Mouse tournaments is laughable.

20>19>17
56>55>54

That's all that matters.
 

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Out of 4 Slams, 1 WTF and 9 Master tournaments, only 4 are on clay. 28%
1 is on grass. 7%
9 is on HC. 64%


Nobody cares about Mickey Mouse ATP 500 and 250 tournaments.
This ^^^. Mostly, Big Titles or Big Events matter, because top players prioritize playing Big Events. Big Titles or Big Events are Grand Slams, ATP Finals, and Masters 1000s.

50% of grand slams are played on hardcourts (25% on clay and 25% on grass).
ATP Finals (100%) is played on hardcourts (0% on clay and 0% on grass).
66.67% of Masters 1000s are played on hardcourts (33.33% on clay and 0% on grass).

Outside grand slams, the only 5-setter match played at any event is Olympics, so, Olympics has it own prominence. The last Olympics played on clay was in 1992, the last Olympics played on grass was in 2012. Between 1992 and 2020, out of 8 Olympics, only 1 was held on clay, only 1 was held on grass, and 6 were held on hardcourts.

In short, hardcourts comprise of at least 2/3rds (approx.) of the important tennis events that top players care about. Clay and grass together comprise of not more than 1/3rds (approx.) of the important tennis events.
 

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Sure, winning a title is not a bad thing, certainly much better than losing.

But touting 103 >> 84 and 103 >> 78 as some sort of monumental achievement when nearly half of those 103 titles are Mickey Mouse tournaments is laughable.

20>19>17
56>55>54

That's all that matters.
It's still a massive achievement and in no way you cant take that away from Federer.If Halle was a Masters 1000 tournament,Federer would've at the very least won it 8-9 times just like Wimbledon.It's a shame that on his best surface he only had one big tournament to play.Compare that to Nadal who had 3 Masters 1000 tournaments on clay and ofc he vultured them by winning something like 25 of his 35 Masters at those 3 tournaments .
 

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Discussion Starter #13
It's still a massive achievement and in no way you cant take that away from Federer.If Halle was a Masters 1000 tournament,Federer would've at the very least won it 8-9 times just like Wimbledon.It's a shame that on his best surface he only had one big tournament to play.Compare that to Nadal who had 3 Masters 1000 tournaments on clay and ofc he vultured them by winning something like 25 of his 35 Masters at those 3 tournaments .
But clay is the surface where half of the atp tour start playing, all latin america, southern Europe, france and central Europe, count how many top 100 players are only from France, Spain, Argentina and Italy combined... Grass used to be a stronghold when Brits and Aussies dominated, how many top 100 Are from UK, NZ or Aus? Surely far less that the former group. And North Americans have lost protagonism, and yet almost 60% of courts are played on HC
 

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But clay is the surface where half of the atp tour start playing, all latin america, southern Europe, france and central Europe, count how many top 100 players are only from France, Spain, Argentina and Italy combined... Grass used to be a stronghold when Brits and Aussies dominated, how many top 100 Are from UK, NZ or Aus? Surely far less that the former group. And North Americans have lost protagonism, and yet almost 60% of courts are played on HC
Your point? It's still Federer's best surface and he only had one big tournament throughout his career on that surface.If grass had a Masters 1000 since Federer started playing this "big tournaments won" race would've looked a lot diferent in Federer's favour ofc.

So what if you start playing a particular surface.It doesn't mean that it's going to be your best surface for the rest of your life.As I recall even Murray went to Barcelona to train as a kid.He trained on clay and it was his worse surface throughout his career in which he won 2 Wimbledon's on GRASS.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
8 of the current top 14
50+ out of current top 100 come from nations with long tradition of CLaycourts, I mean they are mostly from Austria,Hungary France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece,Romania, Croatia , Serbia... Argentina, Chile, Uruguay,..and I didnt even want to include the germans who have more tradition on Clay or Grass than on HC.. so if Anything the Claycourts are being undermined in terms of importance if we think about the current countries and players that are dominating the tour. Also main tournaments in Balkans such as Croatian and Serbian open are also played on clay... There is a case that 60% of current top 100 come from nations whose most important tournament of their home countries are played on CLAY
 

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It's still a massive achievement and in no way you cant take that away from Federer.If Halle was a Masters 1000 tournament,Federer would've at the very least won it 8-9 times just like Wimbledon.It's a shame that on his best surface he only had one big tournament to play.Compare that to Nadal who had 3 Masters 1000 tournaments on clay and ofc he vultured them by winning something like 25 of his 35 Masters at those 3 tournaments .
It's an achievement and nobody is taking it away from Federer, but it's by no means a "massive" achievement.

"If Halle was a Masters 1000 tournament". LOL. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. You can't extrapolate the results from a Mickey Mouse tournament that top players regularly skip and assume the results would be similar if the top players showed up.

If Halle was a Masters 1000 tournament Federer wouldn't be facing the likes of Seppi, Falla, Goffin, Coric, Youzny, Kiefer and Fish in the finals.

Djokovic (you know, the guy that beat Federer in each of the 3 Wimbledon finals they met) only played Halle once, in 2009.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Your point? It's still Federer's best surface and he only had one big tournament throughout his career on that surface.If grass had a Masters 1000 since Federer started playing this "big tournaments won" race would've looked a lot diferent in Federer's favour ofc.

So what if you start playing a particular surface.It doesn't mean that it's going to be your best surface for the rest of your life.As I recall even Murray went to Barcelona to train as a kid.He trained on clay and it was his worse surface throughout his career in which he won 2 Wimbledon's on GRASS.
I am no criticizing Fed or Talking against GRass, I was mostly supporting why its wrong that HC is being overrepresented.. when Its a surface the most popular surface in North America, and (recently) Australia and Asia, but most Succesful tennis players dont come from those countries, but Rather Europe (Central and Southern Europe, including the balcans.. being heavily into Claycourts) and obviously Latin America aswell.
 

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It's an achievement and nobody is taking it away from Federer, but it's by no means a "massive" achievement.

"If Halle was a Masters 1000 tournament". LOL. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

If Halle was a Masters 1000 tournament Federer wouldn't be facing the likes of Seppi, Falla, Goffin, Coric, Youzny, Kiefer and Fish in the finals.
So you're saying that Federer who won 8 Wimbledon titles in his career wouldn't be able to at least add that many on a grass Masters 1000 lol And it is a massive achievement.Really growing tired of Djoko and Nadal fans trying to downplay everything Federer did.Relax,your guys are probably going to win more lol
 

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I am no criticizing Fed or Talking against GRass, I was mostly supporting why its wrong that HC is being overrepresented.. when Its a surface the most popular surface in North America, and (recently) Australia and Asia, but most Succesful tennis players dont come from those countries, but Rather Europe (Central and Southern Europe, including the balcans.. being heavily into Claycourts) and obviously Latin America aswell.
In an ideal world we would have equal number of tournaments on all surfaces but hey it's not an ideal world.Still we all know that hard courts and even the grass courts used to play a lot faster than they do these days so you can see that they tried to make it equal for everyone.The only thing missing-a grass Masters 1000.
 
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