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Discussion Starter #21
If I was an editor looking for tennis content, I would not buy this story. Needs some more research, and color, before I am willing to buy into the dubious concept. But I would encourage also the writer to keep at it.

Idle comments while I wait for Shapovalov's first match to complete...
No one's trying to be a journalist man. I'm a tennis fan, writing a tennis opinion based on the background I've had in the game and what I've observed from watching the tour over the past few years. I've just said it straight. My research is my watching of the tour. I trade on the betting markets and I've noticed these common aspects of all the rising youngsters. How many standard sized youngsters are making it through except for Thiem?

Stories have to be sensationalised. Journalists write what the reader wants to read, which typically is conventional thinking, not alternative. So I am in no way surprised you would say this. A typical reader would look at the top 2 in the world and be blinded by that.

What will paint the colourful reality of what I've said is the years that go past on tour and as Djokovic and Murray gradually decline and the youngsters making the surge up the rankings all have that one trend.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
There are more variables. Impact force will depend on racquet head speed, which depends on moment arm length. However, tall players, for example, have longer arms that have more inertia. With regard to the entire body, they are heavier. They have more bone, etc. mass that doesn't contribute to the movement. But longer muscle fibers are not stronger. What affects muscle strength is cross sectional area.

This individual discrepancy works against tall players. However, their longer lever will result in equal racquet head speed with a lesser rotational velocity.

You could use golf club length as an analogy. Longer clubs hit further, but that would be a false equivalency since golf club mass is negligible compared to, for example, arm weight, which weigh 10+ lbs in men. A longer club doesn't amount to significantly more inertia. A proper analogy would be punching power, but I don't see any evidence that Lennox Lewis hit harder than Mike Tyson. Punching power isn't the reason the Klitschko's have dominated heavyweight boxing for almost the entire 2000s. But anyway...

The net effect of every variable is likely that tall players do generate slightly more power. However, my own observations are that short guys generate plenty enough. I've seen 5'10" rec players with beer guts effortlessly generate big power. Anyone can. The trick is hitting it hard and keeping it in. Watch a pro close up. They don't hit the ball as hard as they can.

Remember that hard cross court backhand Federer hit against Nadal at AO 2014 out of frustration? How often does he hit it that hard? Never.

With regard to serve, you go bigger than you do on groundstrokes, but the principal impact of height seems to be hitting angle rather than pace. A big reason Isner, etc. serve so big is they serve A LOT flatter than 6' guys do. I stand by what I said. Slower courts are enabling these unathletic bums who "serve from a tree."
All good points, but I want you to focus on the arms especially & how the length of a players' arms affects their swing.

Read this:

 

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+1

Wasn't feeling the OP at first, but the fourth last line, now I'm in complete agreement.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
^Lol.
 

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Stop using words too big for your boots, Johnny. 'Decelerations'. :grin2:

These are not generalisations. This is big picture thinking. Something you wouldn't be too aware of.

I hope you are not being dim, Johnny? Or is this intentional stupidity for the sake of immaturely disagreeing? Even when you haven't processed a thought on it. Small minds. Narrow minds. Small picture thinkers. You come under the umbrella of these type of people free of independent thought thinkers.

Johnny: Nishikori, Ferrer and Goffin are in the prime of their careers. Well, Ferrer's not and is declining, but you get the point, he's more experienced. These youngsters have just come onto the scene. What I have highlighted here is a picture of the future for us. This will be the typical type of player to make-up the top 20 or even 30 and you won't break that mould unless you are as gifted as Nishikori & Goffin. How many Goffins are there? How many Nishikoris are there? There's not many. But again, you are just one of these guys that needs everything explained to you. Everyone else knew the point I was making, but apparently not you.

Now as usual, you had to make an attack, because you're a little bit jealous I've made a thread which every one can see my perspective on and discuss. So you've had to come and try and play down points I've risen. This shows not only immaturity at 27 years of age, but poor character attributes.

I tell you what, go make one of your 'statistic achievements' by hall of fame player threads. You have nothing interesting to say Johnny. The only thing you do on here is unintentionally make people laugh. Sorry, but it's true.

Stop being a lost soul, drop the playing 10k first round futures qualies and apply for that managerial position at Dominos.
Yeah, you haven't changed. Bye.
 

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All good points, but I want you to focus on the arms especially & how the length of a players' arms affects their swing.

Read this:

Throwing speed is a good comparison. Much better than punching power. It's essentially a tennis serve while removing the hitting angle variable.

I'm no baseball fan, but, outside of Randy Johnson, it seems that pitchers in the MLB are a bit shorter than your average serve bot.

The average male height in the U.S. is 5’10’’. You’d never know this from watching a baseball game, where the average height is about 6’2", with pitchers just a little taller at about 6’3".
http://www.fangraphs.com/community/six-feet-under-evaluating-short-pitchers/

So pitchers are relatively tall at 6'3", but not obscenely so. A couple inches taller than Federer and Sampras. We also have to account for the fact that pro sports organizations and men tend to inflate their own heights. Shaq is really 7', not 7'1" and so on. No one rounds down and we can safely assume the average is more like 6'2.5" at best.

I also looked up the fastest pitchers in history. According to this site, the top 10 have the heights:

The 10 most powerful pitchers in baseball history

5'11"
6'
6'1"
6'2"
6'3"
6'3"
6'4"
6'4"
6'5"
6'10"

Median: 6'3"
Mean: 6'3.1"


Again, we can account for the likely 'rounding up' and subtract half an inch. Same as the average for all pitchers so I don't see any linear trend.

What's likely is that the multivariable nature produces a sort of parabolic relationship between length and power. Pitching speed seems to optimize at around 6'3" (or less) and I wouldn't be surprised if tennis power optimizes around the same height.

But, again, I think that hitting angle is the more important variable and that's why serve bots tend to be taller than MLB pitchers. They differ in height from the average ATP player (several inches) much more than pitchers do from the average MLB player (1 inch).
 

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I always thought tha the best heoght to play tennis was around 1,85 and 1'89. Tall enough to generate some power and to be Quick enough to cover all court. Now you are saying to me that a 1,93 m player have more advantages to play than a 1,81m player, but i dont know what to think about this.
 

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All these measurements are garbage, really. The biggest determination of the winner of any match is the mind and the will, neither of which can be objectively measured with numbers
 

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Everyone should appreciate just how talented Nishikori is to compete with giants.
 

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Being tall with a big serve also makes being "clutch" easier easier (the concept not the OP). All it takes to get out of a BP for a taller player with a good serve, is one big swipe of the racquet. All your problems can go away with one swing of the racquet. Of course they may need to be calm and decide where to place it, but all in all it doesn't need the same amount of mental fortitude as the alternative. Even if the opponent returns the serve over the net, it may be an easy put away (not always but I'm speaking generally). I'm not saying serving big under pressure is easy, just easier than the alternative.

Goffin/Nishikori's games are based on taking the ball early, and hitting multiple good shots in a row to move an opponent around and win the point. It requires consistent focus and excellent timing. If they're a break point down they can't just swat their problem away with a big serve (usually). They have to stay calm under pressure throughout the entire point and make sure their timing doesn't slip on a single shot. I think this is part of why they're often less than clutch against the top players. But Nishikori is decently clutch against dangerous lower ranked players despite all this. Outclutched the likes of Isner, Kyrgios and Monfils over the past year, then there's the whole deciding set record which is fantastic despite a bit of padding. Goffin is less clutch I would say, but there's room for improvement there.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Being tall with a big serve also makes being "clutch" easier easier (the concept not the OP). All it takes to get out of a BP for a taller player with a good serve, is one big swipe of the racquet. All your problems can go away with one swing of the racquet. Of course they may need to be calm and decide where to place it, but all in all it doesn't need the same amount of mental fortitude as the alternative. Even if the opponent returns the serve over the net, it may be an easy put away (not always but I'm speaking generally). I'm not saying serving big under pressure is easy, just easier than the alternative.

Goffin/Nishikori's games are based on taking the ball early, and hitting multiple good shots in a row to move an opponent around and win the point. It requires consistent focus and excellent timing. If they're a break point down they can't just swat their problem away with a big serve (usually). They have to stay calm under pressure throughout the entire point and make sure their timing doesn't slip on a single shot. I think this is part of why they're often less than clutch against the top players. But Nishikori is decently clutch against dangerous lower ranked players despite all this. Outclutched the likes of Isner, Kyrgios and Monfils over the past year, then there's the whole deciding set record which is fantastic despite a bit of padding. Goffin is less clutch I would say, but there's room for improvement there.
Absolutely accurate.

It's what I said later in the thread.

Guys, I'm not talking about just movement. This isn't just about movement. This is about the types of players that are climbing to the top of the game. The type of physical stature you need.

If you're tall, with a big serve & have one big groundstroke with okay movement, you are good. Back in the day, tall guys couldn't move too well, but that's all changed. Tall guys are now great athletes and we're seeing that with Alexander Zverev. It's primarily why Zverev has so much more potential than the rest, he has those big weapons from being tall, but also good movement. Of course he will always struggle with low balls, but would you rather be him than Nishikori, of course? Because you can close matches out. You aren't going to choke because you have no serve when in a tiebreak with Djokovic in the Rome Semi Finals.

The taller and bigger your serve is, the more relaxed you are when playing points from the baseline, both in return and on serve, because you know, YOU KNOW, that if shit doesn't pan out for you in the rally, so what? Who really cares? Because there is always the opportunity to bang an ace or a big serve to give you the easy edge in the rally, the following point.

The advantage big servers with big weapons have is not only the fact they have big serves and big weapons, it's mental! They are comfortable under pressure. Their game allows them to feel comfortable.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
The only reason the guy with no Groove is so opposed to this clear view, is because he is 5'8 and it scuppers his delusional vision. If you can't see that the average height of a tennis player has grown & believe everything we are talking about is garbage and that anyone can become a top 10 player if their mind is willing enough and that physicality and talent don't help, then you are a lost soul in denial Jonathan.

Nothing wrong in having ambition & I'm not discouraging you from yours. If you see this as negativity because you're 5'8 and it causes your mind to rationalise there will be no fairy story, then I'm sorry. I've seen this before from people btw. Where someone brings a view to the table which inadvertently troubles their dreams and aspirations and they react emotionally.
 

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Discussion Starter #33

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The topicstarter obviously has no clue about Kuznetsov and Shapovalov. Rublev is as tall as Djokovic. Fritz is a typical post-Sampras/Agassi US player, baby Querrey (maybe more talented, but i am not so sure; probably more clutch). Zverev is literally baby Safin with more clever forehand grip. What does Delbonis do in the list? His game is as unorthodox as it gets (i would say ugly, honestly). I know that he is one of 6 (?) players born in 90s with multiple titles, but he is not a "prototype" ATP player, by any means. What about Coric or Nishioka?
 

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Discussion Starter #35
The topicstarter obviously has no clue about Kuznetsov and Shapovalov. Rublev is as tall as Djokovic. Fritz is a typical post-Sampras/Agassi US player, baby Querrey (maybe more talented, but i am not so sure; probably more clutch). Zverev is literally baby Safin with more clever forehand grip. What does Delbonis do in the list? His game is as unorthodox as it gets (i would say ugly, honestly). I know that he is one of 6 (?) players born in 90s with multiple titles, but he is not a "prototype" ATP player, by any means. What about Coric or Nishioka?
Djokovic uses his height to benefit other areas of his game, but his serve has improved drastically under Boris Becker. He is now able to capture quite stunning angles and has one of the best, well placed second serves on tour.

Being atleast 6 feet 1 also helps the defensive players, who like to counter and neutralise the rally, before stepping into short balls. Murray and Djokovic are examples of this, because they have large wing-span (Arms & legs) and can reach out to balls.

Nishikori on the other hand at 5'10 has formed a game style which gives him the best chance with his height. Yes he can defend & turn defence into offence with a counter, but his primary focus is taking the ball early.

The point is the tall players with greater reach and wingspan that are being formed and developed are not playing the all court style/game Djokovic and Murray are, they are just serving big flat serves outwide and big kickers on the second and crushing anything short with their groundstrokes. They are helped by the slowness of the court, as now their movement and quickness to get in position to hit the shot isn't as much of an importance anymore. :wink2:
 

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Thiem, Goffin (did you watch him against Raonic in Wimbledon ?), Nishikori, Wawrinka, Ferrer, the big-4 ... among youngsters why choose Fritz and not Coric or Chung ? why Delbonis and not Dimitrov or Klizan ?

Querrey emerged more quickly but he's had a worse carreer than Fognini.

This narrative is as old as tennis and since then great champions have always been 1.85m-1.88m.

And the most talented tall man, Del Po, has been plagued by injuries, partly because of his height.
 

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Anyway apart from OP including a topspin clay junkie in the list, saying that the future will be tall guys with big game exclusive is non-sense and plain bullshit.

We're just unfortunate that most youngsters that appeared right now are in that kind of pattern, it's just a sad "coincidence". Or that the youngster that should represent the "other side" is not that good (I'm talking Coric) of course.

Saying that guys are the future of ATP is the same as saying those guys at their peak will be much better than Nadal/Djokovic/Murray which is delusional.

I'm pretty sure ATP will have room for the opposite, for some new Nadals Murrays or Djokovics as soon as a kid with that style of play is good enough to emerge.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Anyway apart from OP including a topspin clay junkie in the list, saying that the future will be tall guys with big game exclusive is non-sense and plain bullshit.

We're just unfortunate that most youngsters that appeared right now are in that kind of pattern, it's just a sad "coincidence". Or that the youngster that should represent the "other side" is not that good (I'm talking Coric) of course.

Saying that guys are the future of ATP is the same as saying those guys at their peak will be much better than Nadal/Djokovic/Murray which is delusional.

I'm pretty sure ATP will have room for the opposite, for some new Nadals Murrays or Djokovics as soon as a kid with that style of play is good enough to emerge.
It's just all massive coincidence that the youngsters breaking through are the ones with the big weapons and serves. It's all a fallacy right?

Well over the next 3-4 years, let's bump this thread and find out whether it's plain bullshit then.
 

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It's just all massive coincidence that the youngsters breaking through are the ones with the big weapons and serves. It's all a fallacy right?

Well over the next 3-4 years, let's bump this thread and find out whether it's plain bullshit then.
Yes. You, as a gambler, is like going black 5 times in roulette and saying that from now on will only be black.

Are you saying to me that if there was a 18 old kid which was as good as was Murray or Djokovic when they were 18 years old he wouldn't stand a chance to, let's say in 5 or 6 years, fight for the big titles? In a time where a defensive baseliner just won the grass slam by destroying a guy from your list in straight sets?

Yes it's unfortunate that the best kids right now happen to be those tall guys with big game.

The only thing I can remotely agree with you is that there is less room for guys that play like Haas or Federer, and even there I'm not so sure.
 
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