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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Alex Zverev - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Nick Kyrigos - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Thanasi Kokkinakis - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Jiri Vesley - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Taylor Fritz - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Andrey Rublev - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves less than okay.
Andrey Kuznetzov - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Denis Shapovalov - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Federico Del Bonis - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Marin Cilic - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Milos Raonic - Tall, big serve, big groundies, now starting to move okay.

This is where tennis is heading & has already headed. I despise Nadal's game but the truth of the matter is, what Uncle Toni said was absolutely spot-on-the-money.

Strings became as advanced as they are quite some-time ago now, but the point is coaches have now had a decade to mould & manufacture players from a toddler age into making the most of them. If you are tall with long levers (Arms & legs) you can generate such easy power using the strings of today, that it's literally like we have different weight divisions competing against each other in boxing. Imagine sticking Amir Khan in a ring with Anthony Joshua? And no smaller guys cannot make up for it with movement, unless it's clay.

The modern day player is tall & a mechanical ball-striker with little fluidity & guile in their game.

Small, nimble & quick guys have had to resort to playing up on the baseline like Ferrer & Nishikori & use their quick footwork to get themselves in position to take the ball early & aggressively everytime. Which is near impossible to do every time and consistently, because you need immaculate timing to pull it off. Imagine needing that timing on pressured points & moments?

I've studied the tour enough by now & know full well this is where we are. These smaller guys have no chance, not only because they can't generate anywhere near the power, but they have to always play up near the baseline & if they're being attacked, take balls on the half volley. They don't have the reach to drop behind, like Murray and Djokovic, who stand above 6 feet & just one offs and won't be replicated again. Alex Zverev, Andrey Kuznetzov, Shapolova etc.

Guys like Lucas Pouille are very rare unfortunately. All court guys that do everything well & possess that spark of x factor also. The days of Tommy Haas & yes, Roger Federer are done. It's not too defensive. The courts being slow actually helps the aggressive players, but that leads into a ball-bashing fest. Many are blinded by the fact we are living in a Djokovic accompanied by Murray era.
 

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We need Sampras back to save tennis.
 

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Hopefully, there will be some new guys that break this mold.

A guy like Coric will be able to compete with these guys because he moves very well.

Nishikori can still school these type guys for a few more years.

Tsonga has everything these guys have plus very good movement.

But I agree, if there are no upcoming Ferrer, Nishioki or Tsonga types coming up, it will be boring if everyone at the top of the game plays the same way and has basically the same attributes.
 

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Welcome back :worship:
 

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The biggest hitters off the ground right now - Stan and Thiem, aren't that tall. I can't see that shorter players are underpowered from the baseline.

What height helps with so much is serve, moreso because it affects the angle of the serve than leverage. And, in today's game, it's better to be tall with a great serve and mediocre movement than short with good movement.

This is just something that is inherent to the rules of the sport like basketball. If the hoop wasn't 10 feet in the air, NBA players would be as tall as soccer players. And, if tennis players served underhanded like in badminton, the average height in tennis would reflect the average height in that sport.

I would say that the slowing of the courts may be more responsible for this increasing height trend than anything, since it enables poor movement. To be a S&V player back in the day still required a ton of athleticism like Sampras and Tsonga have. You couldn't just be a tall unathletic wide hip'd dude like Raonic or skinny fat guy like Kyrgios.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
The biggest hitters off the ground right now - Stan and Thiem, aren't that tall. I can't see that shorter players are underpowered from the baseline.

What height helps with so much is serve, moreso because it affects the angle of the serve than leverage. And, in today's game, it's better to be tall with a great serve and mediocre movement than short with good movement.

This is just something that is inherent to the rules of the sport like basketball. If the hoop wasn't 10 feet in the air, NBA players would be as tall as soccer players. And, if tennis players served underhanded like in badminton, the average height in tennis would reflect the average height in that sport.

I would say that the slowing of the courts may be more responsible for this increasing height trend than anything, since it enables poor movement. To be a S&V player back in the day still required a ton of athleticism like Sampras and Tsonga have. You couldn't just be a tall unathletic wide hip'd dude like Raonic or skinny fat guy like Kyrgios.
You have only named two players here. Thiem & Wawrinka & yes, these guys have a lot of topspin to add in with their power, which requires racquet head control, but aside from these two & Verdasco?

Height doesn't only help with the serve. The longer your arms & legs are the easier it is for you to generate power, because you can use your legs as a 'spring-board' and your arms can gear up further. It's the extension of the arm.

'Torque is greater when the size of the moment arm (the distance from the muscle to the joint) is larger. This works with the extension of the arm in the serve. The more the arm is extended, the greater the length of the moment arm and the lever, which in turn puts more acceleration on the racquet head and more power on the ball (see diagram below).


Reference - http://biomechanicstennis-tombuck.weebly.com/torque-levers-and-angular-momentum.html

^^^^I'll find other supporting articles which support that taller players find it easier to generate power because their arms & legs are longer, but this is a start...




So if you put a guy 6'5 & a guy 5'11 side-by-side, both having the same quality of technique, the 6'5 guy will be able to generate more power. In Alex Zverev's case, because he is also a good athlete, it's double the pleasure, because now he can move well enough to prepare early for shots & hit them hard. So the edge the 5'11 guy has on the 6'5 guy, from being able to move better, has suddenly been eradicated.

A good tall player will always beat an equally good small player, in modern tennis. Guys like Goffin and Nishikori have to play up along the baseline, unless they are on clay & take the ball early & aggress & when they are on the backfoot & in a defensive position, counter-punch. Especially Goffin, who can't generate power for shit.

Some make the argument that as a small player, your technique will be more compact & reliable/efficient, but if we look at Zverev & Fritz's backhands, they're also compact.
 

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Alex Zverev - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Nick Kyrigos - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Thanasi Kokkinakis - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Jiri Vesley - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Taylor Fritz - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Andrey Rublev - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves less than okay.
Andrey Kuznetzov - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Denis Shapovalov - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Federico Del Bonis - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Marin Cilic - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Milos Raonic - Tall, big serve, big groundies, now starting to move okay.
I'd see the ones bolded are similar players and fit your description.

Cilic actually is a great mover for his size, but I wouldn't say his groundies are that big. Neither Raonic's groundies are big, he has very low power actually for someone with his body type.

Kyrgios is an all courter.

Delbonis is nowhere near a modern prototype ATP player, according to your definition. He's actually an awful mover and his groundies and serve aren't big, he just has the advantage of being a lefty and kinda unorthodox technique. Pretty much the same as Vesely, but the czech serves harder.

I think Kuznetsov and Shapovalov have barely 6 foot, while Zverev has almost 6'7, so your height range for tall players looks a bit too large.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I think a lot of people are seeking out for technical little nuances which can imply my theory is wrong.

Of course not every single one of those players I mentioned are going to be identical to the description and there are going to be some who have additional minor qualities to their game. The big picture point is however, the fundamental make-up of their game is to serve big and hit big forehands or backhands. Kyrgios for example may have tricks up his sleeve & possess great touch etc and what not, but this is not what wins him matches. It's what wins you most of your points. What is the reason these guys are playing on the professional tour? Is Kyrgios on tour because he has all court skills? No. He's there primarily because of his serve & his forehand. Raonic has a big forehand.

If you've watched/seen Del Bonis play on the clay, you'll know he's a very good mover for someone as tall as he is. You should watch him more. He slides into drop-shots and plays all sorts of cat and mouse games with players in the forecourt. Ask any guy that has the patience to watch clay court tennis on the 250 ATP or challenger tour. He has the obvious advantage of being lefty, yes, but also power to add to that. Vesley has even more power than Del Bonis & both play with shape & control on their shots, but they have long arms and legs which allows them to generate easier power than smaller guys, like Diego Schwartzman and Ricardo Berankis etc.

Zverev is 6'5, not 6'7. lol.
 

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The biggest hitters off the ground right now - Stan and Thiem, aren't that tall. I can't see that shorter players are underpowered from the baseline.

What height helps with so much is serve, moreso because it affects the angle of the serve than leverage. And, in today's game, it's better to be tall with a great serve and mediocre movement than short with good movement.

This is just something that is inherent to the rules of the sport like basketball. If the hoop wasn't 10 feet in the air, NBA players would be as tall as soccer players. And, if tennis players served underhanded like in badminton, the average height in tennis would reflect the average height in that sport.

I would say that the slowing of the courts may be more responsible for this increasing height trend than anything, since it enables poor movement. To be a S&V player back in the day still required a ton of athleticism like Sampras and Tsonga have. You couldn't just be a tall unathletic wide hip'd dude like Raonic or skinny fat guy like Kyrgios.
Meet 1996 Wimbledon winner, Richard Krajicek.

However, he could advise players like Raonic and Krygios on how to improve their movement:

Richard Krajicek: Karate helped me win Wimbledon - VAVEL.com
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Guys, I'm not talking about just movement. This isn't just about movement. This is about the types of players that are climbing to the top of the game. The type of physical stature you need.

If you're tall, with a big serve & have one big groundstroke with okay movement, you are good. Back in the day, tall guys couldn't move too well, but that's all changed. Tall guys are now great athletes and we're seeing that with Alexander Zverev. It's primarily why Zverev has so much more potential than the rest, he has those big weapons from being tall, but also good movement. Of course he will always struggle with low balls, but would you rather be him than Nishikori, of course? Because you can close matches out. You aren't going to choke because you have no serve when in a tiebreak with Djokovic in the Rome Semi Finals.

The taller and bigger your serve is, the more relaxed you are when playing points from the baseline, both in return and on serve, because you know, YOU KNOW, that if shit doesn't pan out for you in the rally, so what? Who really cares? Because there is always the opportunity to bang an ace or a big serve to give you the easy edge in the rally, the following point.

The advantage big servers with big weapons have is not only the fact they have big serves and big weapons, it's mental! They are comfortable under pressure. Their game allows them to feel comfortable.
 

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The magic is gone from tennis. It's sad, now we just have Nishikori who remotely represents all court tennis.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Lol^
 

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The modern MTF troll is much the same these days, one dimensional

(Not suggesting Clutch is, but others in here are sadly weak compared to their forbearers)
 

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Yeah, but those tall players often have trouble with low balls, long, draining matches, injuries to the lower body, and footwork and quick direction change

Your sweeping declarations are wrong, as usual, as tennis is one of the best sports to be able to play despite height.

All those tall ballbashing players, but guys like Nishikori, Ferrer, and Goffin are ranked higher, but any problem can be found?
 

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If I was an editor looking for tennis content, I would not buy this story. Needs some more research, and color, before I am willing to buy into the dubious concept. But I would encourage also the writer to keep at it.

Idle comments while I wait for Shapovalov's first match to complete...
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Yeah, but those tall players often have trouble with low balls, long, draining matches, injuries to the lower body, and footwork and quick direction change

Your sweeping declarations are wrong, as usual, as tennis is one of the best sports to be able to play despite height.

All those tall ballbashing players, but guys like Nishikori, Ferrer, and Goffin are ranked higher, but any problem can be found?
Stop using words too big for your boots, Johnny. 'Decelerations'. :grin2:

These are not generalisations. This is big picture thinking. Something you wouldn't be too aware of.

I hope you are not being dim, Johnny? Or is this intentional stupidity for the sake of immaturely disagreeing? Even when you haven't processed a thought on it. Small minds. Narrow minds. Small picture thinkers. You come under the umbrella of these type of people free of independent thought thinkers.

Johnny: Nishikori, Ferrer and Goffin are in the prime of their careers. Well, Ferrer's not and is declining, but you get the point, he's more experienced. These youngsters have just come onto the scene. What I have highlighted here is a picture of the future for us. This will be the typical type of player to make-up the top 20 or even 30 and you won't break that mould unless you are as gifted as Nishikori & Goffin. How many Goffins are there? How many Nishikoris are there? There's not many. But again, you are just one of these guys that needs everything explained to you. Everyone else knew the point I was making, but apparently not you.

Now as usual, you had to make an attack, because you're a little bit jealous I've made a thread which every one can see my perspective on and discuss. So you've had to come and try and play down points I've risen. This shows not only immaturity at 27 years of age, but poor character attributes.

I tell you what, go make one of your 'statistic achievements' by hall of fame player threads. You have nothing interesting to say Johnny. The only thing you do on here is unintentionally make people laugh. Sorry, but it's true.

Stop being a lost soul, drop the playing 10k first round futures qualies and apply for that managerial position at Dominos.
 

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You have only named two players here. Thiem & Wawrinka & yes, these guys have a lot of topspin to add in with their power, which requires racquet head control, but aside from these two & Verdasco?

Height doesn't only help with the serve. The longer your arms & legs are the easier it is for you to generate power, because you can use your legs as a 'spring-board' and your arms can gear up further. It's the extension of the arm.

'Torque is greater when the size of the moment arm (the distance from the muscle to the joint) is larger. This works with the extension of the arm in the serve. The more the arm is extended, the greater the length of the moment arm and the lever, which in turn puts more acceleration on the racquet head and more power on the ball (see diagram below).


Reference - Torque, Levers and Angular Momentum - What are the Biomechanical Principles of a Tennis Serve and How Can They Be Applied to Increase the Speed of a Serve?

^^^^I'll find other supporting articles which support that taller players find it easier to generate power because their arms & legs are longer, but this is a start...




So if you put a guy 6'5 & a guy 5'11 side-by-side, both having the same quality of technique, the 6'5 guy will be able to generate more power. In Alex Zverev's case, because he is also a good athlete, it's double the pleasure, because now he can move well enough to prepare early for shots & hit them hard. So the edge the 5'11 guy has on the 6'5 guy, from being able to move better, has suddenly been eradicated.

A good tall player will always beat an equally good small player, in modern tennis. Guys like Goffin and Nishikori have to play up along the baseline, unless they are on clay & take the ball early & aggress & when they are on the backfoot & in a defensive position, counter-punch. Especially Goffin, who can't generate power for shit.

Some make the argument that as a small player, your technique will be more compact & reliable/efficient, but if we look at Zverev & Fritz's backhands, they're also compact.
There are more variables. Impact force will depend on racquet head speed, which depends on moment arm length. However, tall players, for example, have longer arms that have more inertia. With regard to the entire body, they are heavier. They have more bone, etc. mass that doesn't contribute to the movement. But longer muscle fibers are not stronger. What affects muscle strength is cross sectional area.

This individual discrepancy works against tall players. However, their longer lever will result in equal racquet head speed with a lesser rotational velocity.

You could use golf club length as an analogy. Longer clubs hit further, but that would be a false equivalency since golf club mass is negligible compared to, for example, arm weight, which weigh 10+ lbs in men. A longer club doesn't amount to significantly more inertia. A proper analogy would be punching power, but I don't see any evidence that Lennox Lewis hit harder than Mike Tyson. Punching power isn't the reason the Klitschko's have dominated heavyweight boxing for almost the entire 2000s. But anyway...

The net effect of every variable is likely that tall players do generate slightly more power. However, my own observations are that short guys generate plenty enough. I've seen 5'10" rec players with beer guts effortlessly generate big power. Anyone can. The trick is hitting it hard and keeping it in. Watch a pro close up. They don't hit the ball as hard as they can.

Remember that hard cross court backhand Federer hit against Nadal at AO 2014 out of frustration? How often does he hit it that hard? Never.

With regard to serve, you go bigger than you do on groundstrokes, but the principal impact of height seems to be hitting angle rather than pace. A big reason Isner, etc. serve so big is they serve A LOT flatter than 6' guys do. I stand by what I said. Slower courts are enabling these unathletic bums who "serve from a tree."
 
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