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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Points Week Change Tourn Played
1 Djokovic, Novak (SRB) 13,130 1 18
2 Nadal, Rafael (ESP) 12,670 -1 20
3 Federer, Roger (SUI) 6,100 1 21
4 Wawrinka, Stan (SUI) 5,770 -1 21
5 Berdych, Tomas (CZE) 4,410 1 24
6 Raonic, Milos (CAN) 3,920 3 20
7 Ferrer, David (ESP) 3,875 0 24
8 Del Potro, Juan Martin (ARG) 3,360 0 19
9 Dimitrov, Grigor (BUL) 3,270 4 23
10 Murray, Andy (GBR) 3,040 -5 20
11 Nishikori, Kei (JPN) 2,780 1 21
12 Isner, John (USA) 2,735 -1 22
13 Gulbis, Ernests (LAT) 2,680 -3 25
14 Gasquet, Richard (FRA) 2,370 0 25
15 Fognini, Fabio (ITA) 2,235 0 27
16 Tsonga, Jo-Wilfried (FRA) 1,910 1 21
17 Anderson, Kevin (RSA) 1,835 1 24
18 Robredo, Tommy (ESP) 1,720 4 23
19 Dolgopolov, Alexandr (UKR) 1,680 0 29
20 Cilic, Marin (CRO) 1,665 9 22
21 Monfils, Gael (FRA) 1,660 0 24
22 Youzhny, Mikhail (RUS) 1,655 -6 26
23 Bautista Agut, Roberto (ESP) 1,625 0 25
24 Lopez, Feliciano (ESP) 1,545 2 27
25 Haas, Tommy (GER) 1,475 -5 24
26 Kohlschreiber, Philipp (GER) 1,475 2 29
27 Almagro, Nicolas (ESP) 1,360 0 24
28 Granollers, Marcel (ESP) 1,285 2 30
29 Verdasco, Fernando (ESP) 1,205 -5 24
30 Tursunov, Dmitry (RUS) 1,200 1 31
31 Karlovic, Ivo (CRO) 1,175 1 27
32 Garcia-Lopez, Guillermo (ESP) 1,163 2 26
33 Pospisil, Vasek (CAN) 1,135 0 27
34 Giraldo, Santiago (COL) 1,135 1 28
35 Chardy, Jeremy (FRA) 1,105 7 27
36 Simon, Gilles (FRA) 1,085 8 24
37 Stepanek, Radek (CZE) 1,085 1 23
38 Delbonis, Federico (ARG) 1,084 -1 24
39 Istomin, Denis (UZB) 1,065 6 28
40 Sousa, Joao (POR) 1,020 1 30
41 Berlocq, Carlos (ARG) 1,010 2 23
42 Lu, Yen-Hsun (TPE) 958 5 26
43 Hewitt, Lleyton (AUS) 950 5 20
44 Benneteau, Julien (FRA) 935 2 25
45 Seppi, Andreas (ITA) 935 -9 30
46 Roger-Vasselin, Edouard (FRA) 920 4 29
47 Mayer, Leonardo (ARG) 919 17 24
48 Rosol, Lukas (CZE) 900 4 33
49 Haase, Robin (NED) 900 4 29
50 Mayer, Florian (GER) 895 -10 23

I've bolded those whom I believe to be out and out counter-punchers. If you think I've missed any let me know.

Now. My question is this, why have out and out counter-punchers died? Ferrer used to be one and we now see him more up on the baseline dictating with the forehand.

I'm specifically referring to those players who's ethos is rarely ever to play on the front-foot and be aggressive. Nishikori and Murray, I completely know carry great counter-punching assets and use them on the odd occasion, but they have mainly an emphasis for attack also. So they aren't out and out counter-punchers.

Why is it too much effort and hard-work for counter-punchers to survive without having weapons these days?

- Is it to do with the strings getting even tougher and allowing for more power?
- Is it because there are less net-rushers in the game?
- Is it because the players coming through now a days are being taught to be less flat-out aggressive and instead to adopt more of healthy balance between attack and defense? Whilst using their weapons opportunistically?
- Are there just no counter-punching talent? Where are the days of the Michael Chang, Lleyton Hewitt, Fabrice Santoro etc.

I don't know. Is there room for surviving with just a counter-punching style in today's game?
 

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i agree with latso 1, 2, 7, 10

also bold each spaniard except lopez and maybe verdasco

nishikori also looks more of a counterpuncher after all

this style is definitely not dead :lol:
 

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never been more alive if you ask me. It's flourishing and the new order. If your defense isn't insanely great, you just cannot compensate enough with the cleanest and sharpest offense, it just doesn't cut it.

Surfaces, strings, etc., etc.
 

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Number 2 is the biggest example, though I would say he is more out and out defence even more than regular counter punchers. But I agree with latso, the string technology and surface speed makes it much easier for counter punchers to flourish.
 

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Djokovic is much more of grinder. He has strong enough serve and aggressive return and consistent power to dictate majority of points during his matches against almost every player. Ferrer has much worse serve, but still he is more of grinder.

Nadal - depending on the day, opponent and surface.

Murray and Simon are the best examples of counter-punchers really.
 

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GGL is another player who often shows up as counter-puncher. He has amazing ability to play low balls from the back of the court and has very good passing shots.
 

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LOL at people not knowing what is counter-punching.
ONE CAN ONLY COUNTERPUNCH in low-bouncing conditions.
You can't counterpunch on clay =~= too ineffective
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
you've forgotten to bold 1, 2, 7 and 10.
Latso - They have an ability to counter-punch well, but really it's only the make-up to one 'sector' of their very complete games.

Let me ask, is Dimitrov a counter-puncher, because he can counter-punch? Just having the skill to counter-punch at your disposal doesn't make you a counter-puncher because your entire game doesn't surround around doing it.

Just because a player can counter punch doesn't make them immediately a counter-puncher. Nishikori and Murray can both play aggressively, but you wouldn't dream of branding these guys aggressive players, or would you?

There used to be more players at the top of the game whom used to have nothing else than a game that relied 'soley' on counter-punching. I know Djokovic, Murray and these guys are all excellent at it, but Djokovic also has the best backhand the game has had and he doesn't only that backhand when counter-punching players. His game style isn't to ONLY attack when on the defensive, he does take the initiative in points and has multiple ways of attacking you. Counter-punchers only have one way they hurt you. You wouldn't say Djokovic sits back and waits for you to come at him in a point.

Even the top guys in the top 20 whom do counter-punch, they do so sparingly. This is my point, it's not used as a tactic NUMBER 1 tactic much anymore now a days. Being defensive isn't the same as counter-punching btw, just so we are clear, I hope we can agree on that.

Hewitt as an example did struggle to generate his own power for instance.

I think people are missing the point of this thread, I’m trying to find out where the counter-puncher doesn’t exist anymore. Having a good defence doesn’t necessarily make a player a counter-puncher really. The top players whom can counter-punch only use it when they need to.
 

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Murray 'mainly an emphasis for attack'? He's clearly the most successful counterpuncher on the tour right now and is proof that the style is still effective in the right conditions. And Djokovic, Nadal, Monfils and Granollers aren't counterpunchers; all are some variant of grinder besides ballbasher/pusher hybrid Monfils.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Seppi, Robredo?
Robredo, I wouldn';t say he's a counter-puncher really. He generally looks to open up the angles of the court by using the forehand. Hides the backhand running around it looking to dictate with the forehand. Spanish style, plays the percentages, always looks to go cross-court for that margin for error. Sure, he has the ability to counter-punch, but it's not what his 'success' is built on.

I;'m talking about players that's game is built on 'counter-punching' - Like Hewitt, Simon, Santoro, Chang, Monfils.... those kinda guys. Out and out ball-absorbers.




- GGL's number 1 tactic is to look to open up angles with his forehand and be aggressive.

Being defensive doesn't = counter punching...
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Murray 'mainly an emphasis for attack'? He's clearly the most successful counterpuncher on the tour right now and is proof that the style is still effective in the right conditions. And Djokovic, Nadal, Monfils and Granollers aren't counterpunchers; all are some variant of grinder besides ballbasher/pusher hybrid Monfils.
Being defensive does not make a player a counter-puncher.

Though I admit Murray is probably the most regular player from the top 20, alongside Nishikori, to counter-punch, he has more to his game than counter-punching and his game doesn't 'RIDE' (Keyword being ride) on counterpunching.

Also please stop thinking simplistically based upon who's defensive and who's attacking, counter-punching isn't pushing the ball back into court. :rolleyes:


If you can't see that Granollers is a MASSIVE counter-puncher then LOL. I don;t know what tennis you've been watching all your life.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
You forgot Murray, he's a player with basically the same style of Simon, just with more talent, touch and power.
Murray is basically the same style as Hewitt, just with more talent, touch and power.

The thing is Murray's game isn't counter-punching dependent, without getting bogged down with the technicalities to who is a counter-puncher and who isn't. The fact of the matter is there aren't many players at the top of game that just are dependent on counter-punching. The ones whom can like Murray and Nishikori, are able to additionally add that extra injection of pace when they feel they need to.

People are missing the question I'm getting at. Why do we see no more Michael Chang's and Lleyton Hewitts... players with no weapons at all and need to use the pace of their opponents?
 
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