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I support HK protesters because they clearly want to protect their rights and freedom. It is doubtful whether Catalans (some, not all) are really fighting for freedom or for pure economic-tribal based separatism based on some old stories and emotions. Spain is not a dictatorship, the left dream of 'revolution' is anachronous, at least 50 years late. Half of Catalans are against independence. The economic issue is also questionable. There could be an argument made that Catalonia is rich because it IS part of Spain, and that it would suffer economically in case of separation. They would need to apply for EU again and surely the rest of Spain would veto them. Big banks would probably leave. Uncertainty would last too long before possible, but not guaranteed stabilization - huge damage. There is no clear and agreed path to take the day after.

Of course, I understand that currently irrational rather than rational reasons prevail, like often happens around the world in different times. In this case, an unrealized dream of independence that would immediately lose all its charm once it happens to become reality.

I would support anything that would be legal and a result of peaceful agreement with clear way ahead. Because again, it is a democratic country not a dictatorship, and Catalonia enjoys a high level of substantial and real autonomy. Besides, I am personally for more unification (not forced but agreed) and less separation and borders. I hate borders in principle, although I'm aware they are inevitable and required.
That is exactly what it is, old plain tribal ethnic nationalism of exactly the same kind you suffered in YU and Europe has suffered so much in the not so distant past. Or what we see now in Ukraine. It's pure evil, it only brings missery, destruction and suffering. It has already brought a great deal of harm to this society, now very deeply split in roughly two halves who detest each other. Big former catalan banks (La Caixa, Banc Sabadell) together with roughly 5000 companies left the region already two years ago. VW Spain has green light from HQ to move, if so decides, SEAT factory (biggest company in Catalonia) out of the region. Catalonia sells more to Aragón (1.5 mill ppl) than to France! The economic argument is out of the question, just a bait for the gullible, they don't even mention anymore. The whole thing is pure tribal hatred, they'd rather destroy Catalonia if Spain is also destroyed.
 

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But if Rajoy hadn't destroyed Zapatero's deal, this wouldn't be happening, this is also PP's fault.
Wrong. First it wasn't Rajoy but the Constitutional Court. Zapatero's "deal" was clearly inconstitutional. It would've happened anyway sooner or later, it's a strategy since Pujol took power in the early 80s. Narionalism never has enough, they need absolute power.
 

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It has already brought a great deal of harm to this society, now very deeply split in roughly two halves who detest each other.
the Mediterranean Sun easily produces hotheads.

If I may comment, it is essential that rational people within Catalan community stay level-headed, and understand that most of their hothead neighbors and brothers are not evil, whatever side they took.

Politically, this kind of movements needs martyrs and martyrdom to succeed and further homogenize their base, like in the good old long gone days. Or some big violent misstep. And a lot of propaganda to spice it up of course, to the extent that would make even Rafa Nadal, a Catalan speaker, pro-independence. Something like that is obviously very unlikely, but it's still worth mentioning. There are no rational reasons to create a situation of no way back, and I am confident that neither Madrid nor Catalans will fall into that trap.

Legally, it is clear that the law enforcement must protect constitution, order, security, property, freedom of movement.

All of this would be a different story if it was about freedom on one side and tyranny on the other side, but the situation is not like that. That is my only yardstick to measure situations anywhere. Of course in many cases things are quite fluid and not easy to define, but in my book this case is clear. It is just my opinion though, people there will solve it politically and I wish all of them all the best.
 

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Discussion Starter #45 (Edited)
Zapatero was the greatest PM in Spanish history, him withdrawing forces from Iraq immediately after an election victory was a boss move.

As for Catalonia, I expressed my view towards the independence move already in the second page, I have no agenda, they have to talk it through, I am just against violence, be it from Police be it from the protestors. My Barça&Madrid visits were always full of joy. I am a fan of Spain and especially the cinema.

But I just don't buy this ''economicaly you will suffer!, life will suck for you!'' point, maybe people wouldn't be arsed even if that happens? maybe they rather take that hard route instead of being super rich? I don't think if Serbia was Spain, Kosovars would say, all good for me, let's be brothers. Same would have happend. Not saying Milosevic was Franco, he was way worse and way more recent in the history, but people are people, never consistent and full of emotions.
 

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I don't think if Serbia was Spain, Kosovars would say, all good for me, let's be brothers.
You might be right there, but the fact is deplorable not commendable. And it is a product of a loooong period of mismanagement, no democracy and abuse of rights during various periods. And I mean for everyone there, Serbian community included. Not to mention the extremely difficult aspect of hundreds of years old Christianity vs Islam story, something like that would be hard to deal with anywhere, Europe included. I am 100% sure about it. It is sufficient just to look at the Irish religion based rift, and it is even one religion. I don't even know what would be a good comparison for Catalonia. For example France is entirely composed of various Catalonias. Italy is also composed of various Catalonias. And there are examples of separatism too but not so strong. It would be a very bad idea for the world to follow the Balkan example.
 

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Zapatero was the greatest PM in Spanish history, him withdrawing forces from Iraq immediately after the election was a boss move.
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LoL. No one, and I say no one in Spain thinks so, not even die-hard members of his party. The general consensus here is he has been by far the worst ever PM in our recent (democratic) history. He is sort of a political leper, PSOE doesn't want him anywhere near, specially at electoral campaign times like we have now. His name isn't even mentioned for fear of atracting political bad luck.
 

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You might be right there, but the fact is deplorable not commendable. And it is a product of a loooong period of mismanagement, no democracy and abuse of rights during various periods. And I mean for everyone there, Serbian community included. Not to mention the extremely difficult aspect of hundreds of years old Christianity vs Islam story, something like that would be hard to deal with anywhere, Europe included. I am 100% sure about it. It is sufficient just to look at the Irish religion based rift, and it is even one religion. I don't even know what would be a good comparison for Catalonia. For example France is entirely composed of various Catalonias. Italy is also composed of various Catalonias. And there are examples of separatism too but not so strong. It would be a very bad idea for the world to follow the Balkan example.
Almost every European country is composed of several "Catalonias". The difference between Spain and, say, France, Italy or Germany, is that Spain Constitution gave too much power to its "Catalonias". Far too much. For instance, when you put children's education in the hands of nationalistic people that's what you get.
 

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But I just don't buy this ''economicaly you will suffer!, life will suck for you!'' point, maybe people wouldn't be arsed even if that happens? maybe they rather take that hard route instead of being super rich?
I forgot this, I am sure you've noticed it is the pro-independence movement who extensively use the economy card for their separatism. So it is perfectly reasonable to explore the validity of the claim. My conclusion is - the more they base it on economy the less their argument appears valid.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
You might be right there, but the fact is deplorable not commendable. And it is a product of a loooong period of mismanagement, no democracy and abuse of rights during various periods. And I mean for everyone there, Serbian community included. Not to mention the extremely difficult aspect of hundreds of years old Christianity vs Islam story, something like that would be hard to deal with anywhere, Europe included. I am 100% sure about it. It is sufficient just to look at the Irish religion based rift, and it is even one religion. I don't even know what would be a good comparison for Catalonia. For example France is entirely composed of various Catalonias. Italy is also composed of various Catalonias. And there are examples of separatism too but not so strong. It would be a very bad idea for the world to follow the Balkan example.
Very much agree, especially the Basques chose to stay after long years of fight, why not Catalans, their language is very similar to Spanish, unlike Basque language, which is like Albanian or Hungarian very independent language in the Europe, so the Catalans should feel much more comfortable staying in the Spanish union. But Franco days and his ban on Catalan language still on the memory, I guess.

We will see, previous Rajoy govt. ruined a lot of things, Sanchez was off-guarded, new elections looming in 20 days time, Vox (far right and oppose Catalonia's autonomoy) on the rise according to polls. It is just a shame. Prison time for the politicians who the locals love didn't help either.
 

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Reasonable catalans and basques know that our prosperity comes from being in Spain. Look at French Catalonia accross the border, poorest region in France. Same with French basque country, largely irrelevant. Compare with situation this side of the border... but when extreme nationalism pollutes people's minds reason leaves.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
I forgot this, I am sure you've noticed it is the pro-independence movement who extensively use the economy card for their separatism. So it is perfectly reasonable to explore the validity of the claim. My conclusion is - the more they base it on economy the less their argument appears valid.
Ah, I remember. “We pay for the rest of Spain!”, “our taxes go to people who detest us!”, “Spain proper uses our hard earned money!”

That was equally idiotic, yes. It is very much similar what Lega Nord tried to pull in Northern Italy. They also gave up now, backfired.
 

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All those economic arguments aren't mentioned anymore since they've revealed themselves to be blatantly false. It doesn't matter, a nationalistic mind needs no arguments, just emotions, and emotions can be created and nurtured by lies and propaganda.
 

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LoL. No one, and I say no one in Spain thinks so, not even die-hard members of his party. The general consensus here is he has been by far the worst ever PM in our recent (democratic) history. He is sort of a political leper, PSOE doesn't want him anywhere near, specially at electoral campaign times like we have now. His name isn't even mentioned for fear of atracting political bad luck.
I guess for similar reasons, Carter is considered one of the worst in US and one of the best by those outside of it. When you're anti-war and want to resolve the issues peacefully, the deep state will ruin your image. He was in office during GFC, so that's a big reason as well, same happened here in Portugal.
 

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I guess for similar reasons, Carter is considered one of the worst in US and one of the best by those outside of it. When you're anti-war and want to resolve the issues peacefully, the deep state will ruin your image. He was in office during GFC, so that's a big reason as well, same happened here in Portugal.
Sorry, it has nothing to do with "deep state" or any other similarly esoteric conspiracy theory. He was simply a terrible PM, period, and people can tell a shitty PM when we see it without any "deep state" telling us, we just suffered him. He greatly contributed to sink the country in the worst economic crisis in Spain's modern history, he set off the current political crisis in Catalonia by foolishly saying he would accept "anything coming from Catalonian parliament" (meaning a new Estatute of Autonomy), so he got an inconstitutional one. He did and said many terrible things for us Spaniards but those two are quite enough to regard him the way he is widely regarded here.
 

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I guess for similar reasons, Carter is considered one of the worst in US and one of the best by those outside of it. When you're anti-war and want to resolve the issues peacefully, the deep state will ruin your image. He was in office during GFC, so that's a big reason as well, same happened here in Portugal.

Lol, no. I don't even give a shit about the war. Zapatero was a shit president because he kept denying the economic crisis that ran through Europe instead of taking early measures against it, which had the consequence that it hit Spain much harder than in other countries (the only country that was hit harder was Greece). And contributing to the current situation in Catalonia thanks to letting the nationalists run rampant. Among other things. He was useless.
 

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That is exactly what it is, old plain tribal ethnic nationalism of exactly the same kind you suffered in YU and Europe has suffered so much in the not so distant past. Or what we see now in Ukraine. It's pure evil, it only brings missery, destruction and suffering. It has already brought a great deal of harm to this society, now very deeply split in roughly two halves who detest each other. Big former catalan banks (La Caixa, Banc Sabadell) together with roughly 5000 companies left the region already two years ago. VW Spain has green light from HQ to move, if so decides, SEAT factory (biggest company in Catalonia) out of the region. Catalonia sells more to Aragón (1.5 mill ppl) than to France! The economic argument is out of the question, just a bait for the gullible, they don't even mention anymore. The whole thing is pure tribal hatred, they'd rather destroy Catalonia if Spain is also destroyed.
Log out, turn the laptop off and never come back. :help:
 

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Please read about thibns before say BS.
Hong Kong people did it right... These radicalS NOT
I was saying that as in HK people are happy to see our protest is making an impact elsewhere in the world. I don't have any opinion on the matter in Catalonia as of now, simply because I'm not informed enough of the situation.
 

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I was saying that as in HK people are happy to see our protest is making an impact elsewhere in the world. I don't have any opinion on the matter in Catalonia as of now, simply because I'm not informed enough of the situation.
I wouldn't be that happy, Catalan etno-linguistic nationalism is just not the right people to have an impact on.

Catalan senior citizen confronting separatists-terrorists who were wreaking havoc in Central Barcelona the whole week:







 
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