Mens Tennis Forums banner

1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,715 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
For Federer fans:

If it weren't for Pepe Imaz, Djokovic would have, or be very close to, the Slam record and undisputed GOAT status.

If you want to do the fairest comparison of who the greater player is, you have to go to 2011 when Djokovic was peaking and Federer was only 29/30. And Djokovic mostly won, although of course there were some titanic matches.

Subjectively if you look at level of play I think Djokovic is the GOAT (forget the idiotic BOAT title). The Slam numbers would already align with this if he hadn't wasted time with Imaz.

Btw I don't buy the idea that Federer is ahead in Slams because of a 'weak era' before Djokal. Outside the other two GOATs he has been the best player for something like 16 years - 2003 to 2019. You cannot put that down to a weak era.

In fact the post-Djokal players have been much, much weaker than Federer's era. The real blame for Djokovic not having the Slam record already is with Imaz - he could have been feasting on 3/4 Slam seasons for years now if he hadn't wasted time.

This isn't to deny Federer credit - even at 33/34 he was the only player putting any real resistance to the monster that is Djokovic, even if Djokovic was better.

For Nadal fans:

For all his qualities (and I am a fan of his), your boy is not GOAT level outside clay and he never has been.

His career has mostly overlapped with Fedovic but why does he have so many fewer non clay Slams than they do?

He has significantly fewer non clay Slams than even Sampras.

Once Federer figured out how to deal with his CCFH and enlarged his racquet, Nadal is the weakling of the Big 3 on hard. His recent record against Fedovic on hard is horrific now - even with Federer being > 35 yrs.

Btw I don't mean this AO final where he was scared. He needs Uncle Toni back to give him a good beating for that performance - losing to fear before he even stepped out on the court. I never saw that before from Nadal. No matter how good Djokovic is, Nadal should never have gone down so tamely in the form he was in.

Nadal has incredible fighting qualities and is the clay GOAT. He now needs to put everything into defending his turf against the Djokobeast.

But general GOAT? No.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,046 Posts
nice observation...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,515 Posts
[...]

If you want to do the fairest comparison of who the greater player is, you have to go to 2011 when Djokovic was peaking and Federer was only 29/30. And Djokovic mostly won, although of course there were some titanic matches.
Which is exactly what one would have expected; in 2011, Djokovic was 23/24, a similar age to Federer when he was at his peak, although, overall, their career curves are not alike.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,129 Posts
I believe Djokovic will be the GOAT when all is said and done at least statistically. Thats fine, Federer's legacy is still enormous and I will always support him. It remains to be seen if Novak has that same level of longevity but I cant see him stopping any time soon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,456 Posts
Until Novak closes in on 20 slams, Federer is still the goat, their H2H is close enough with Novak's peak aligning way closer to Federer's decline then the other way around (Novak's ascent/Federer's peak), his H2H vs Nadal is close enough and Nadal has a positive slam H2H, he hasn't done much to distance himself in the GOAT debate besides his current general dominance of top players. Funny he's better at slams now then he was post 2011 and worse at BO3s. I think if he again gets the NYCGS then he has a strong case for BOAT. I think style matters too, Roger plays a fluid, crowd pleasing OHBH style of tennis that seems peerless and ageless. I feel he's sometimes incvonvenieced by his own virtuosity, otherwise he wouldn't blow as many 2 set leads if he didn't think it was too easy. Novak's ownage of Nadal on HC is hilarious though. Totally helpless this Rafa.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
Fed's legacy starting to suffer as well, the more Djoko beats Nadal. These guys are undefeated in slam finals at their stages, despite playing each other numerous times. Fed ain't undefeated at his... he plays these guys more and he wouldn't have inflated as much. He's the weak link.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,715 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
I believe Djokovic will be the GOAT when all is said and done at least statistically. Thats fine, Federer's legacy is still enormous and I will always support him. It remains to be seen if Novak has that same level of longevity but I cant see him stopping any time soon.
Who is stopping him except himself, injury, or Nadal on clay? The field since about 2014 (outside GOATs) has been the weakest since about 2002, when Hewitt was no 1.

Federer wins vs Djokovic slowly dried up the further past 30 he got. Now he is almost 38. He cannot do it any more. Nadal on clay is debatable.

I would like to see some posts from Fedal fans either being honest that Djokovic is going to end up as GOAT, or making the case why not. Really he should be there already apart from the Amor y Paz rubbish.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,190 Posts
No, i think Federer supports Djokovic today.

Nadal is a much greater threat to the slam record as RG is a lock every year.

Djokovic can be beaten by new gen and will easily disappear from another injury.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,129 Posts
No, i think Federer supports Djokovic today.

Nadal is a much greater threat to the slam record as RG is a lock every year.

Djokovic can be beaten by new gen and will easily disappear from another injury.
From what I saw today Nadal shouldnt be regarded as a lock for RG anymore. At some point his days of domination there will end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
From what I saw today Nadal shouldnt be regarded as a lock for RG anymore. At some point his days of domination there will end.
In the past 12 months, Rafa has proven he remains a threat for every Slam; even Wimbledon (came sort of winning the whole thing for a couple of points). Since he was able to reach the AO2019 final in such a convincing fashion (even though he was aided by another cakewalk), I'm not buying into him stepping down from his clay throne yet. After all, it's clay the surface that makes his topspin forehand even more formidable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
About eight months ago it looked as if Djokovic no longer had a chance in the GOAT discussion. Now his chance is better than ever. I just read in a Swiss article that Djokovic could surpass Federer's two most important records in summer 2020. Crazy! Tennis is quite a unique sport. That's why I love it. Even as a Federer fan I have to say that this victory of Djokovic makes the whole thing more interesting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,644 Posts
Wow, I haven't see the OP for a long time. Good to see you bud. I hope you'll post more often and I hope everything is good with you.

Nice observation, not much to add ... Djokovic did waste some time but it is what it is. Where he goes from here is up to him. He still seems to be driven.

As for Rafa, I still think if he can play more tournaments in a row he could surprise us. Now, I don't think he should overplay, just play the whole damn season, make a good schedule etc. He doesn't need to overplay on clay. Play a few clay masters and RG. e.i. Why is he going to Acapulco? He has nothing to prove on clay.

If I were him I'd focus more on H.C. tournaments. Don't forget that Nadal won a lot of masters on H.C.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,311 Posts
Why is he going to Acapulco? He has nothing to prove on clay.
Acapulco has been played on HC since 2014. Still, I have no idea why he is going there (just before IW+Miami combo).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,816 Posts
On his 28th birthday, Federer had 14 Slams.... Djokovic had 8. GOAT?? The fact he has won nearly half his Slams at what is a veteran age for a tennis player, must raise questions about the quality of the era he was lucky enough to be part of.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,644 Posts
Acapulco has been played on HC since 2014. Still, I have no idea why he is going there (just before IW+Miami combo).
lol, I know Acapulco is being played on HC.

It's just that I was talking about playing less on clay where he has nothing to prove, playing more on HC but picking the right tournaments where he can be tested properly against the best players. Acapulco just doesn't make any sense. It doesn't fit.

It's all about smart scheduling. Be where the best HC players are, don't hide in Acapulco. Get tested, even if you lose. It's not a big deal. Play all H.C. masters and a few 500s where you can expect to play against the best HC players in the world.

Ideally, maybe play 18/19 tournaments a year. It is possible. Give yourself enough rest in between and practice. That's what I meant.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,715 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
On his 28th birthday, Federer had 14 Slams.... Djokovic had 8. GOAT?? The fact he has won nearly half his Slams at what is a veteran age for a tennis player, must raise questions about the quality of the era he was lucky enough to be part of.
In his early 20s when most GOATs break through he had to face 2 GOATs blocking his path. Fed on grass/hard and Nadal on clay. That is incredibly tough to get through. How many times did he have to play Fed in the semis on hard or Nadal in the semis on clay?

In the end it seems to have helped him. He had to develop a game with basically no weaknesses at all in order to topple them in 2011. Now the two GOATs are fading he should have been mopping up against a weak field since at least 2014.

If he had stayed on his game after 2016 FO, the Slam totals might be something like this:

Federer 18
Djokovic 18
Nadal 16

With Djokovic set to pull easily clear of the other two and become the GOAT, Nadal maybe picking up some more FOs to tie Federer with a heavily clay biased CV.

And that would probably be a fair reflection of their respective abilities.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,715 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Wow, I haven't see the OP for a long time. Good to see you bud. I hope you'll post more often and I hope everything is good with you.

Nice observation, not much to add ... Djokovic did waste some time but it is what it is. Where he goes from here is up to him. He still seems to be driven.
I'm fine, just not posting much. :)

I'm just trying to be honest with this thread. Despite our reputation several Federer fans have been able to look through the tardism and admit the truth. No Nadal fans yet...
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top