[Djoker21]

According to Ultimate Tennis Statistics, court speeds at the Australian Open and Wimbledon are markedly faster than in the 90's. US Open is roughly the same speed. The notion about no fast courts today is false. The courts are in general much faster today. The reason it doesn't seem that way is that athletes in today's game are taller, stronger, and more athletic and tend to track down everything. Even though both are faster nowadays, the gap between the speeds of French Open and Wimbledon courts is actually larger than it used to be.

*100 - fastest, 0 - slowest

2018 Court Speeds

AO: 67
FO: 53
WB: 79
USO: 63

2008 Court Speeds

AO: 57
FO: 53
WB: 75
USO: 67

1998 Court Speeds

AO: 50
FO: 45
WB: 64
USO: 59

 

[Gambler_3]

It's certainly something to consider, but isn't the only criteria. It's not like current GOAT arguments don't also include other features like weeks @ no 1, masters, YEC, YE #1, etc.

Quality of comp is a stat used in hockey that would be interesting to try to derive in tennis.

To me the main argument against Nadal is that he never maintained his own era as the best player in the world.

From 05-mid 08 it was Federer. Nadal got hurt and lost the #1 as soon as 09, then got in back in 10. Then 2011-16 Djokovic was the clear best player aside from 2013. Nadal got another one last year, but the spread is 08, 10, 13, 17. But IMO he was clearly the second best player behind either Federer or Djokovic for most of his career.

This era thing is another complete BS. But if we are to talk about it then 2008-2014 is definitely the Nadal era. Or you could also argue that no one has had an era since 2008. From 2008 to 2010 it was all about Nadal vs Federer. Then 2011 onwards it became the battleground of the big 3 and continues to be that way till this day.

Weeks at no. 1 is the only stat that matters for what you are talking about. Nadal has already made substantial ground on that in the last year. The year end no. 1 is a pretty meaningless thing since the year end is merely a week in time like any other. But even there Nadal is not doing bad anymore.

While Nadal isn't going to own any no. 1 stats but he has definitely gotten himself into very respectable numbers now.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

 

[G.100sic]

According to Ultimate Tennis Statistics, court speeds at the Australian Open and Wimbledon are markedly faster than in the 90's. US Open is roughly the same speed. The notion about no fast courts today is false. The courts are in general much faster today. The reason it doesn't seem that way is that athletes in today's game are taller, stronger, and more athletic and tend to track down everything. Even though both are faster nowadays, the gap between the speeds of French Open and Wimbledon courts is actually larger than it used to be.

*100 - fastest, 0 - slowest

2018 Court Speeds

AO: 67
FO: 53
WB: 79
USO: 63

2008 Court Speeds

AO: 57
FO: 53
WB: 75
USO: 67

1998 Court Speeds

AO: 50
FO: 45
WB: 64
USO: 59

So much for the "homogenization" argument! Thanks!

I tried to convince people using frame by frame analysis of the videos from sample matches for the appropriate periods, but to no avail. Putting some elite players from the '90. in today's competition would make them look like barely dragging their asses compared to nowadays best. We haven't seen that much advancement in the serve since Sampras, nor was he's serve so out of this world compared to today's standards, but returning is just on another level. Today's best returners would've humbled him very quickly. Of course equipment technology played a role, but not so much as physical and fitness abilities advancement.

It would be so interesting viewing if someone with the skills would make an overlaid videos of "then vs. now" on the same court!

 

[G.100sic]

According to Ultimate Tennis Statistics, court speeds at the Australian Open and Wimbledon are markedly faster than in the 90's. US Open is roughly the same speed. The notion about no fast courts today is false. The courts are in general much faster today. The reason it doesn't seem that way is that athletes in today's game are taller, stronger, and more athletic and tend to track down everything. Even though both are faster nowadays, the gap between the speeds of French Open and Wimbledon courts is actually larger than it used to be.

*100 - fastest, 0 - slowest

2018 Court Speeds

AO: 67
FO: 53
WB: 79
USO: 63

2008 Court Speeds

AO: 57
FO: 53
WB: 75
USO: 67

1998 Court Speeds

AO: 50
FO: 45
WB: 64
USO: 59

I simply had to rearrange these data!!!

Court Speeds            
              2018    2008    1998
AO            67      57      50
FO            53      53      45
WB            79      75      64
USO           63      67      59
    avg.      65.5    63.0    54.5
    std.dev.  10.75    9.93    8.58

So not only the average is highest this year and 1998 was lowest, but also the standard deviation was lowest for 1998!!
Myth (dare I say) finally debunked.

 

[WollyHBK]

Surface homogenization is the reason Pushovic got so many HC titles

 

[WollyHBK]

According to Ultimate Tennis Statistics, court speeds at the Australian Open and Wimbledon are markedly faster than in the 90's. US Open is roughly the same speed. The notion about no fast courts today is false. The courts are in general much faster today. The reason it doesn't seem that way is that athletes in today's game are taller, stronger, and more athletic and tend to track down everything. Even though both are faster nowadays, the gap between the speeds of French Open and Wimbledon courts is actually larger than it used to be.

*100 - fastest, 0 - slowest

2018 Court Speeds

AO: 67
FO: 53
WB: 79
USO: 63

2008 Court Speeds

AO: 57
FO: 53
WB: 75
USO: 67

1998 Court Speeds

AO: 50
FO: 45
WB: 64
USO: 59

Wait was WB faster than AO this year

 

[Phillo]

Surfaces have been homogenized, you can't compare post 2002 to pre 2002 in terms of well roundedness. Nadal doesn't win on pre-2002 grass and Djokovic probably doesn't either.

If USO remained fast HC, both would have won less there as well. See their results at Cinci for example.

Whether they've been 'homogenized' or to what extent is much less relevant in Novak's case as he has proven to be an adaptable all court/surface player proving this w/ Golden Masters & soon to b first DCGS in tennis history, not to mention WTF/Indoor match record comparison.

 

[G.100sic]

Surface homogenization is the reason Pushovic got so many HC titles

So you put your desperately flawed argument immediately after the hard data were presented that prove how flawed it was!!!!

 

[Monsi]

Wait was WB faster than AO this year

Why are you surprised? According to this "data" Quitto, Gstaad and Geneva were faster than AO.
Tells you everything you need to know about the topic at hand.

Of course, if you're interested to dig a bit deeper, you'll quickly find out that the formula @mcekovic uses has nothing to do with actual court speed or conditions, but is purely based on points distribution within a match and random weighting.

Court Speed Index (0 - 100): 50 * cube-root(Ace % * (Service Points Won % - 50%) * (Service Games Won % - 60%))

 

[hazzard]

Defending forum troll just because he is a fedtard on one side, but can you provide more detailed analysis ?

I was puzzled with USO court speed this year too, then I found this

The US Open Surface Speed Puzzle ? Heavy Topspin

 

[Cloren]

I simply had to rearrange these data!!!

Court Speeds            
              2018    2008    1998
AO            67      57      50
FO            53      53      45
WB            79      75      64
USO           63      67      59
    avg.      65.5    63.0    54.5
    std.dev.  10.75    9.93    8.58

So not only the average is highest this year and 1998 was lowest, but also the standard deviation was lowest for 1998!!
Myth (dare I say) finally debunked.

Hold your horses lol.

Cute desperation to end this “myth” though

 

[fede37]

If you looked at 2017 Grand Slam court speed comparison you must know AO, Wimbledon and USO differ within 5 CPI points, while FO is at least 10 points behind the slowest out of other 3 Slams. The distribution of Major titles would be worthy of mentioning if the court speed increased in the same interval from Slam to Slam. We should have had something like "FO...AO...USO...Wimbledon". Instead of it, we have "FO............USO....Wimbledon....AO". So if you possess fast tennis skills you get 3 Slams to win. And if your game suits slow courts you only have French Open. I don't really remember Sampras playing different game to win Wimbledon, USO and AO. Serving like a madman, rushing the net and it paid off at 3 Slams, although didn't work in Paris at all. That's why we should look at clay - non clay balance to figure out how versitile a player is.

Really? Do you watch tennis at all?
If you are an offensive player you get 1 Slam to win now, AO
USO is an abomination of a court, disgustingly slow almost imposible to hit through the pushers/grinders
And Wimbledon is so slow too, do you watch that SF between dull and Djokovic? A grindfest

And I dont remember Dull or Djokovic playing different game to win Wimbledon/RG/USO
Nadal standing 5 meters behind baseline to return serve and Djokovic just grinding

 

[G.100sic]

Hold your horses lol.

Cute desperation to end this “myth” though

What's the problem?
When data doesn't suit you, just turn the blind eye?!

After all, shouldn't you as a certified Fedtard be glad about debunking the homogenization myth?!

 

[54405]

And Wimbledon is so slow too, do you watch that SF between dull and Djokovic? A grindfest

And I dont remember Dull or Djokovic playing different game to win Wimbledon/RG/USO
Nadal standing 5 meters behind baseline to return serve and Djokovic just grinding

Excellent analysis.
That's why Kandy beat Roger, right? He just out-grinded him, no? :lol:

 

[Monsi]

Excellent analysis.
That's why Kandy beat Roger, right? He just out-grinded him, no? :lol:

He kinda did. :shrug: And even more mind boggling - outclutched him, too. Go figure a 37 y.o.

When data doesn't suit you, just turn the blind eye?!

What data?
Pulling a random formula out of one's arse doesn't qualify as "data".
@mcekovic deserves the credit for his website - it contains plenty useful historical facts. But this "speed" parameter, which is completely made up and has no basis in reality, is just silly. It proves nothing beyond what we already know - everyone has an agenda.

 

[hazzard]

Really? Do you watch tennis at all?
If you are an offensive player you get 1 Slam to win now, AO
USO is an abomination of a court, disgustingly slow almost imposible to hit through the pushers/grinders
And Wimbledon is so slow too, do you watch that SF between dull and Djokovic? A grindfest

And I dont remember Dull or Djokovic playing different game to win Wimbledon/RG/USO
Nadal standing 5 meters behind baseline to return serve and Djokovic just grinding

You could see glimpses of how Rogie game looks like without great serve he has had whole career . UE machine, ugly af tennis .Although serve is very important shot in the game , mind you tennis is not just about the serve. And yes serve enabled him to finish most points in his favor with 1 2 punches Serve/ FH oriented player. No serve, no great FHs, clueless at net ,as we saw more than once at USO .With occasional flashes of brilliance, BH was always quite weak shot, thus all player attack his BH side.

Djokovic basically servebotted his way thru Wimbledon SF and the whole 2018 tournament. It seems he has few options to win, shame on him. If serve is off, he can rely on grinding, counter punching, controlled aggression, can even moonball when needed...

At RG Nadal game is just special, and he adjusted his game to HC and grass, very well

 

[R]

According to Ultimate Tennis Statistics, court speeds at the Australian Open and Wimbledon are markedly faster than in the 90's. US Open is roughly the same speed. The notion about no fast courts today is false. The courts are in general much faster today. The reason it doesn't seem that way is that athletes in today's game are taller, stronger, and more athletic and tend to track down everything. Even though both are faster nowadays, the gap between the speeds of French Open and Wimbledon courts is actually larger than it used to be.

*100 - fastest, 0 - slowest

2018 Court Speeds

AO: 67
FO: 53
WB: 79
USO: 63

2008 Court Speeds

AO: 57
FO: 53
WB: 75
USO: 67

1998 Court Speeds

AO: 50
FO: 45
WB: 64
USO: 59

The bolded part. How is this possible? Find it hard to believe. After the change to the rye grain and larger balls, there have only been baseliners in the Wimbledon final. Granted, you also have the change in racket and string tech which has also been a significant factor in killing S&V tennis.

Also, courts being faster these days in general. Is this truly the case, or is the pace you can create with the strings and rackets of today also included in the metrics? I mean, I'd think you can create more pace with todays rackets, but if the surface is also faster, I would think it would result in a disastrous pace. IINM making Wimbledon courts more high bouncing (new grain) and using larger balls was in part in order to counter the increased pace from new rackets.

@mcekovic Any comment on the metric?

 

[54405]

He kinda did. :shrug: And even more mind boggling - outclutched him, too. Go figure a 37 y.o.

Actually Fed ran about 10% more in that match, so he was grinding more than Anderson. But no, not even close to a grind fest when you look at distance ran for 5 sets.
Serve is still super potent in WB and points are shorter than anywhere else. It is movement required and lower bounce that is making WB special not mere speed.

 

[Cloren]

What's the problem?
When data doesn't suit you, just turn the blind eye?!

After all, shouldn't you as a certified Fedtard be glad about debunking the homogenization myth?!

I’ll be glad when the data showed is accurate and correct. So far we need the maker of this data to elaborate and explain how he came up with this data, not just suddenly debunk this “myth” when things aren’t even clear enough.

 

[zjtennis]

Why are you surprised? According to this "data" Quitto, Gstaad and Geneva were faster than AO.
Tells you everything you need to know about the topic at hand.

Of course, if you're interested to dig a bit deeper, you'll quickly find out that the formula @mcekovic uses has nothing to do with actual court speed or conditions, but is purely based on points distribution within a match and random weighting.

Court Speed Index (0 - 100): 50 * cube-root(Ace % * (Service Points Won % - 50%) * (Service Games Won % - 60%))

How can this formula indicate the court speed, when it's dependent on player style? Some may just be great in serving, some may just be horrible in defending. Players' performances shouldn't be a variable to determine court speed. It should be constant within a tournament regardless if the players are full of big servers or grinders.