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Discussion Starter #121
You are not comparing Stepinac and Mihailovic are you?
I am not sure what you mean by this. Both were subject to fake communist trials that deserve to be annulled and repeated if necessary. Like it or not, both persons are still controversial, although I understand that Stepinac is a saint in Croatia. I have no problems with that, but I think you understand that he is not a saint in Serbia. Mihailovic is still a highly controversial figure in Serbia, although the trial was annulled. Maybe you think we are all 'chetniks' here?

Chetniks and communists have been inseparable in many ways in later years which even you kinda pointed out well. Could even say this dates way back, even though chetniks basically collaborated with everyone to some degree in WW2. Of course there was no room for someone like Mihailovic after WW2, but nevertheless there were significant amounts of chetniks who defected to partisans, amongst other things.
I know the mainstream perception in Croatia and you express it well. But it doesn't necessarily mean your opinion is correct.

Chetniks only have something in common with Seselj type 'communist chetniks' from YU war movies, as I said.

The truth is, Mihailovic movement were royalists, anti-Nazi, loyal to the exiled Yugoslav government in London, with the Prime Minister Ivan Subasic (a Croatian, btw). Fascism was not their ideology. Communists and Ustasha were anti government revolutionaries,, with terrorism as a preferred way of politics and had much more in common. Like always, fascists and communists were and are just two sides of the same medal.

Of course many chetniks defected to partisans, because the King himself told them to do so in 1943. Note that I make a distinction between partisans and communists. There were many patriots in that resistance front who were not communists at all and many who were not ideological maniacs, just fighters, fighting for their land and freedom. I have absolutely nothing against that Yugoslav anti fascist tradition, on the contrary. Due to heavy reprisals against civilian population in Serbia by the Nazi invaders, royalists started attacking partisans more than Germans. The Allies realized that and redirected their support to partisans.

There were many forms of semi-organized militias with various levels of collaboration, many of them called themselves 'chetniks' but we are talking about Mihailovic and his movement. These are some simple facts in a few simple words, we can interpret them any way we want.

Of course communist trials were a complete farce and so was that entire country, but that really is a lame justification for what has been happening in Serbia regarding the general mood on chetniks and their place in history. Heck, do you not realize that the Truman thing you mentioned in one post above is exactly what guys like Seselj use when someone speaks negatively about the chetniks? I don't want to give any definite statements on a personal level but I honestly doubt you could be labeled as a nationalist or someone brainless, so I don't know if that post was more hilarious or sad lol.
Let's not talk about general mood because that's not the point. You know I would have something to say about 'moods', but I won't. We are neighbors in different countries now, and have different problems and views on history. Which is perfectly fine with me. But let's stick to the facts.

My original point was and still is - annulling the communist trial against Mihailovic was not revisionism. If they tried to rehabilitate Dimitrije Ljotic or Ante Pavelic I would say it revisionism. I am not saying there is no revisionism in Serbia - there is, for example in attempts to rehabilitate Milan Nedic. As for revisionism in Croatia, I'll let you assess the situation yourself. I have no intention of correcting things related to history in neighboring countries. I have neither time, nor particular interest in that.

All that aside, really, how do you explain the high decoration by Truman to Mihailovic and huge reward offered by Germans for his head?
 

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Discussion Starter #122
Think ssin got a little bit angry because Florian seem like a german speaking Croat apologist guy. I mean, well, indeed he does look like that in his recent tweets. But on the other hand he is a good prof, I got some lectures from him, while his wife is Croat and that may make him a little bit biased on Balkan issues, he also heavily criticised the Croat govt when it comes to editing the history of Jasenovac, (intention to cancel commemorations in the town, among other stuff) letting Ustasha related politicians being in the cabinet etc. He is an honest academic. But I give it to ssin, acting a bit hyperbola re this agreement. Dunno what dog he has, I wonder.
My friend, I don't reaally know who this guy is. I had no idea his wife was Croatian, and I don't care, it means nothing to me. I just read some tweets of his and googled his name. WIth my kind of experience it's usually enough to draw some basic conclusions.
 

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Discussion Starter #123
Serbia is a dictatorship run by mafia, the western officials are turning a blind eye to this fact.

Serbia is not a dictatorship. (Otherwise, you would not blab around, free as a bird.)

It is not run by mafia. (But corruption is high and rule of law is flawed)

And the western officials are not turning a blind eye to anything.
(Do you even read western press? What are 'the western officials' supposed to do in your opinion? Some kind of sanctions?)

Congratulations on your hat trick. I'd prefer if you gave something useful for discussion, instead of this. :rolleyes:
 

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Serbia is not a dictatorship. (Otherwise, you would not blab around, free as a bird.)

It is not run by mafia. (But corruption is high and rule of law is flawed)

And the western officials are not turning a blind eye to anything.
(Do you even read western press? What are 'the western officials' supposed to do in your opinion? Some kind of sanctions?)

Congratulations on your hat trick. I'd prefer if you gave something useful for discussion, instead of this. :rolleyes:
Serbia is a dictatorship. I am certainly not "free as a bird" in a country where the government and people in power are sending police along with gangsters to beat peaceful protesters fighting for basic human rights, don't misinform people who are not familiar with the situation. Nor am I blabbing around, speak for yourself.

Serbia is corrupted and was corrupted, and now is also run by mafia. Do you read local news? Do you live in Serbia?

And do you even read western press and did you read it in the 90s? If not, read both and compare.

Congratulate yourself on the post I am replying to and please don't send more of those, we have enough of lies and deception in both local and foreign press. The point of my post is to inform as many people I can about the horrible situation in this country. I don't know what your agenda is.
 

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Discussion Starter #125
Serbia is a dictatorship. I am certainly not "free as a bird" in a country where the government and people in power are sending police along with gangsters to beat peaceful protesters fighting for basic human rights, don't misinform people who are not familiar with the situation. Nor am I blabbing around, speak for yourself.
Peaceful protesters are peaceful protesters, and far right groups that mostly clashed with the police were anything but peaceful. If I was police I would give them much more, police was reserved. Those idiots broke into the parliament.

Serbia is corrupted and was corrupted, and now is also run by mafia. Do you read local news? Do you live in Serbia?

And do you even read western press and did you read it in the 90s? If not, read both and compare.

Congratulate yourself on the post I am replying to and please don't send more of those, we have enough of lies and deception in both local and foreign press. The point of my post is to inform as many people I can about the horrible situation in this country. I don't know what your agenda is.
I live in Belgrade.

If you state something, please be ready to face opposing views or don't post at all if you are not ready to discuss your opinions, or worse, have nothing substantial to say.

You are completely free to inform as many people about anything you want. But your 'information' is so far nothing but slogans without substance. This is not the 90s and there is no Milosevic around.
 

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Peaceful protesters are peaceful protesters, and far right groups that mostly clashed with the police were anything but peaceful. If I was police I would give them much more, police was reserved. Those idiots broke into the parliament.



I live in Belgrade.

If you state something, please be ready to face opposing views or don't post at all if you are not ready to discuss your opinions, or worse, have nothing substantial to say.

You are completely free to inform as many people about anything you want. But your 'information' is so far nothing but slogans without substance. This is not the 90s and there is no Milosevic around.
So, you say that the police who was beating people sitting at the bench is reserved and you live in Belgrade. So are you Aleksandar Vucic then?

I on the other had am a regular, repressed citizen of this country, who would've been thrilled if there had been more protesters breaking not only into the parliament but other institutions as well, the national television etc. chasing the scum away. You know, revolution against the dictatorship, since we don't have free and fair election.

If you state something, please be ready to face opposing views or don't post at all if you are not ready to discuss your opinions, or worse, have nothing substantial to say.

Unlike you I, as you already saw in my previous post, am more than ready to discuss and have plenty of substantial things to say, because I am fighting for justice and freedom as well as for the truth to reach people in other countries. And my information is a video, for start, people can see it with their own eyes (I honestly don't know where you saw "slogans").

Yes, these are not the 90s, Milosevic is not around, people from his government are in power instead of him, so what does that have to do with what I wrote?
 

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Discussion Starter #127
So, you say that the police who was beating people sitting at the bench is reserved and you live in Belgrade. So are you Aleksandar Vucic then?

I on the other had am a regular, repressed citizen of this country, who would've been thrilled if there had been more protesters breaking not only into the parliament but other institutions as well, the national television etc. chasing the scum away. You know, revolution against the dictatorship, since we don't have free and fair election.

If you state something, please be ready to face opposing views or don't post at all if you are not ready to discuss your opinions, or worse, have nothing substantial to say.

Unlike you I, as you already saw in my previous post, am more than ready to discuss and have plenty of substantial things to say, because I am fighting for justice and freedom as well as for the truth to reach people in other countries. And my information is a video, for start, people can see it with their own eyes (I honestly don't know where you saw "slogans").

Yes, these are not the 90s, Milosevic is not around, people from his government are in power instead of him, so what does that have to do with what I wrote?

Yes, I am Vucic. And you must be Srdjan Nogo. Nice to meet you.

Opposition in neighboring Montenegro managed to beat Djukanovic, whose regime was more authoritarian, with real mafia connections, with election that was far more unfair than anything you have in Serbia.

Because the opposition organized, had clear messages, and most importantly, they had the overwhelming support of the people. And even in thatt total disaster of unfair election - they won and I am thrilled for their victory and hope something similar will happen in Serbia.

Revolution against the dictatorship, LOL. Dream on. That's a movie you won't see in Serbia any more. If you want to change something, you must work and organize to persuade your own people, not the 'western officials'. And forget violence.

Serbian opposition with their boycott of the election only managed to destabilize Serbia. Of course, they knew well how they would fare in the election. They knew it sooo well. For your information, last time I voted was in 2008 when I voted Democrats and regretted it.

Your video is a piece of what happened taken out of the context. We don't know what was happening just before that. I can also show videos where police was hit by stones and concrete blocks and didn't react for a long time.

Do you want to hide the fact that people who mostly clashed with the police were far right groups? You know - the true scum in Serbia? Answer that first so that we can have an honest discussion.
 

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Discussion Starter #128
I would like "to inform the western officials" that this is the man who was the most prominent face of violent protests in Serbia. Srđan Nogo - Wikipedia

Ratko Mladic follower and a denier of Srebrenica, no further information is required.

And I am supposed to support this, or vote for such "opposition" LOL.
 

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My friend, I don't reaally know who this guy is. I had no idea his wife was Croatian, and I don't care, it means nothing to me. I just read some tweets of his and googled his name. WIth my kind of experience it's usually enough to draw some basic conclusions.
Thought the very same. There is that kind of image coming out of his profile.
 

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Serbia and Kosovo awkwardly embrace Israel


But will the Balkan enemies really set up embassies in Jerusalem?

It is rare that events in two of the world’s most enduring troublespots—the Balkans and Israel-Palestine—spill over into each other, least of all in a peaceful way. But on September 4th President Donald Trump telephoned his friend Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, to say he had persuaded the leaders of Serbia and Kosovo—once part of the same country, now mortal enemies—to give Israel a warm embrace. Kosovo and Israel, he said, would recognise each other. And both Balkan countries, flouting the policy of the European Union, which they hope to join, will recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

This was a second diplomatic coup for Messrs Trump and Netanyahu after last month’s agreement between Israel and the United Arab Emirates (uae) to open full diplomatic relations with each other. Kosovo would become one of just a handful of majority-Muslim countries to recognise Israel. Ron Dermer, Israel’s ambassador to America and one of Mr Netanyahu’s closest advisers, is said to have been behind the breakthrough.

How Mr Trump cajoled the two Balkan countries into taking such steps is unclear. Their leaders were at the White House to sign an American-brokered economic agreement, to the chagrin of the EU, which is trying separately to persuade the foes to come to terms with each other (Serbia does not recognise Kosovo’s independence). Officials hope the economic deal will boost foreign investment in both countries, perhaps leading to warmer relations.

The deal may not be all it seems at first glance. The opening of embassies in Jerusalem is not due to take place before mid-2021. By then Mr Trump may have had to vacate the White House. And before the ink had dried on the accord, some Serbian sources said their country would not, after all, move its embassy to Jerusalem if Israel recognised Kosovo (which Israel has been reluctant to do, lest it encourage the Palestinians). The president of Serbia, Aleksandar Vucic (pictured), looked somewhat bemused when Mr Trump announced that Serbia would be making the move.

“This is more about American politics than the Balkans or the Middle East,” says Dahlia Scheindlin, an Israeli expert on the Balkans. “Trump is facing a threatening political environment and wanted a foreign- policy spectacle, something his friend Netanyahu is well-versed at orchestrating.” Mr Trump’s election campaigners certainly hope his recent Middle East diplomacy will impress American evangelical Christians and pro-Israel conservatives.
 

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Yes, I am Vucic. And you must be Srdjan Nogo. Nice to meet you.

Opposition in neighboring Montenegro managed to beat Djukanovic, whose regime was more authoritarian, with real mafia connections, with election that was far more unfair than anything you have in Serbia.

Because the opposition organized, had clear messages, and most importantly, they had the overwhelming support of the people. And even in thatt total disaster of unfair election - they won and I am thrilled for their victory and hope something similar will happen in Serbia.

Revolution against the dictatorship, LOL. Dream on. That's a movie you won't see in Serbia any more. If you want to change something, you must work and organize to persuade your own people, not the 'western officials'. And forget violence.

Serbian opposition with their boycott of the election only managed to destabilize Serbia. Of course, they knew well how they would fare in the election. They knew it sooo well. For your information, last time I voted was in 2008 when I voted Democrats and regretted it.

Your video is a piece of what happened taken out of the context. We don't know what was happening just before that. I can also show videos where police was hit by stones and concrete blocks and didn't react for a long time.

Do you want to hide the fact that people who mostly clashed with the police were far right groups? You know - the true scum in Serbia? Answer that first so that we can have an honest discussion.
I am fortunately not Nogo, dream on, as you say.

I did not say that I am dreaming of revolution nor do I think it will happen, please read my posts carefully and don't add meanings to them. I said that I would be thrilled if a revolution, or whatever for that matter, would chase the scum away.

The elections in Montenegro and the situation there were not worse than in Serbia, not that it matter for what I wrote in the previous post(see the paragraph above). And the idea that the officials there have a "real connection" with mafia, and the ones in Serbia don't is either ignorant or insane. So is the idea that "if you want to change something, you must work and organize to persuade your own people, not the 'western officials; and forget the violence", do you know what happened in October 2000? And of course that the opposition knew how they would fare in the election, and not only the current opposition but anyone who would ever think of running in a country where there is no freedom of the press.

Video taken out context? Which context exactly would justify that police action? And how do videos of police not reacting to stones and concrete blocks throwing(we don't need context for that I guess) justifies what they did to people sitting on the bench, and many other innocent people they beat?

And what do far right groups, hooligans and others that clashed with the police have to do with my posts? Where is your thought that I want to hide the fact that they were the people who clashed with the police in most cases coming from exactly?
 

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I would like "to inform the western officials" that this is the man who was the most prominent face of violent protests in Serbia. Srđan Nogo - Wikipedia

Ratko Mladic follower and a denier of Srebrenica, no further information is required.

And I am supposed to support this, or vote for such "opposition" LOL.
The western officials are better informed than most of us, especially you, so I don't understand your need to inform them.

Srđan Nogo is a marginal figure who took part in both non-violent protest that happened two years ago and violent protests from this July. By violence in the later ones I mean hooligans and infiltrators who were minority in the crowds throwing objects at the parliament and police, and the police which executed much worse violence(one of many videos is above).

I don't know who is telling you to support and vote for someone like Srđan Nogo, but that is funny, we agree there...
 

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Discussion Starter #133
I am fortunately not Nogo, dream on, as you say.

I did not say that I am dreaming of revolution nor do I think it will happen, please read my posts carefully and don't add meanings to them. I said that I would be thrilled if a revolution, or whatever for that matter, would chase the scum away.
I read very carefully, you root for a violent overthrow of the government (that I also don't like and never voted for), which would be a disaster for Serbia, my country that I like very much and wish all the best in the future.

The elections in Montenegro and the situation there were not worse than in Serbia, not that it matter for what I wrote in the previous post(see the paragraph above). And the idea that the officials there have a "real connection" with mafia, and the ones in Serbia don't is either ignorant or insane.
They were much worse, in Serbia we had several transitions of power, mostly peaceful, in Montenegro they had none since...forever. This is the first time they did it by voting in the entire history of Montenegro actually. I could write en essay on how voting in Montenegro was way more unfair than in Serbia. As for the mafia thing, again, much worse situation, and I don't have enough time right now, but if you insist, OK. Some other time. But now Montenegrins have a chance for a quantum leap and they will leave Serbia far behind in the dust by any possible democratic metrics. It is still only a chance but I think they will do it. Because they organized and sorted out their ranks.

So is the idea that "if you want to change something, you must work and organize to persuade your own people, not the 'western officials; and forget the violence", do you know what happened in October 2000? And of course that the opposition knew how they would fare in the election, and not only the current opposition but anyone who would ever think of running in a country where there is no freedom of the press.
Yes, that's the idea, absolutely. Of course I know what happened in October 2000. People went out and VOTED in September and the opposition WON under much worse conditions than you have right now. And when the neo bolshevik nationalist regime tried to nullify the results, people took to the streets and very soon the military and the police abandoned Milosevic. You mentioned western officials first for some reason, and therefore I repeat the phrase, as irony.

As for the freedom of press...off the top of my head...ALL important weekly magazines (NIN, Vreme, Nedeljnik) are opposed to the government, daily Danas, several TV stations and virtually entire Serbian social media sphere, minus government bots.

Is the media scene good? No, far from that. It is deplorable and worsened a lot since Vucic came to power. There is much to do there. But it's not the worst I remember. National TV during Milosevic and today....can't be compared. btw I don't watch TV at all last 20 years.

Video taken out context? Which context exactly would justify that police action? And how do videos of police not reacting to stones and concrete blocks throwing(we don't need context for that I guess) justifies what they did to people sitting on the bench, and many other innocent people they beat?
The context of violent incursions into the government institutions.The video of throwing stones doesn't justify anything, that is correct, (so I will not use it) , just as your video doesn't show the entire, real picture of what actually happened. That is why it is equal to slogans or pure political propaganda.

And what do far right groups, hooligans and others that clashed with the police have to do with my posts? Where is your thought that I want to hide the fact that they were the people who clashed with the police in most cases coming from exactly?
But you applaud them and root for them. I am not saying you are trying to hide anything, just asking you. You don't speak of policies, Kosovo, economy, EU, negative effects of Balkan wars, real problems. You just come out and proclaim - this is dictatorship, I hate this government and I wish someone threw them out by force. And this current so called opposition - what exactly they would do about Kosovo, economy, EU, Russia - we don't know. We only know that they want to remove 'the regime'. Good luck with that message :(
 

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Discussion Starter #134
The western officials are better informed than most of us, especially you, so I don't understand your need to inform them.

Srđan Nogo is a marginal figure who took part in both non-violent protest that happened two years ago and violent protests from this July. By violence in the later ones I mean hooligans and infiltrators who were minority in the crowds throwing objects at the parliament and police, and the police which executed much worse violence(one of many videos is above).

I don't know who is telling you to support and vote for someone like Srđan Nogo, but that is funny, we agree there...
So, why didn't police react 2 years ago at all? They could be hardly seen back then. When a much bigger number of people went out and peacefully protested? Why?

Srdjan Nogo is a marginal figure, true, because most of us don't support him, but was one of the central figures in the protests that you like so much and posted video from.

I don't find fascism and communism funny, as you could probably gather. His party Dveri with far right background was one of the most prominent elements of the most important Serbian coalition of opposition parties.

There is zero chance I would ever vote for anything with Dveri inside it. Maybe they would have more success in some other country. Here, as we Serbs say, they can get dick.
 
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