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Discussion Starter #101
Is this guy Turkish? He seems to be well informed about politics in this region.
 

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I agree with your sentiment, but those are two different things, and George Soros is not an Israeli. In fact, Netanyahu has imitated Orbán's hate campaign against Soros within Israel, demonstrating that antisemitism in European countries can be reconciled with cordial relations with Israel.

The most alarming antisemitism I have seen in recent Balkan history has been in Croatia, with numerous political leaders (e.g. Tudjman and Mesic) flirting with Holocaust revisionism. Jews in Croatia have boycotted Holocaust commemorations in protest against the efforts of some Croatian nationalists to rehabilitate their dreadful World War II record. I don't know if there are similar problems in other Balkan countries RE: apologia for Nazi collaboration (it wouldn't surprise me, having seen similar things in Ukraine and the Baltic states), but it has no bearing on Croatia's very friendly relations with Israel.

Regarding Orbán and Israel, Hungary said it is not moving its own embassy to Jerusalem, despite being one of Israel's most steadfast allies, because it wants to conform its foreign policy with the EU. I wonder if this divergence on Serbia's part will have implications for its accession to the EU.
Seems like you might have "missed" this, little leftard. Serbia Rehabilitates WWII Chetnik Leader Mihailovic
 

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Discussion Starter #106
Seems like you might have "missed" this, little leftard. Serbia Rehabilitates WWII Chetnik Leader Mihailovic
No need to be nervous, we are just talking here.

But, since you mentioned the chetnik leader Mihailovic, you should know that the very same person was decorated by President Truman. Legion of Merit decoration is not a little deal. And that was in 1948. After the US had just won a big war against the Nazis. Do you think that Truman and the entire US government didn't know what they were doing?


The war was bloody and chaotic. He may have deserved a trial and punishment. Looks like Americans didn't think so. But not a trial by communists. Of course their 'trial' was annulled.
 

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Seems like you might have "missed" this, little leftard. Serbia Rehabilitates WWII Chetnik Leader Mihailovic
Not at all, because I thankfully have no dog in the pointless, mutually destructive sectarianism that has long blighted relations between Croats and Serbs.

I agree that Chetnik apologists should be ashamed of themselves. Not just for the record of the historical Chetniks in the Second World War, but also for the atrocities perpetrated by Serbian irredentists in the 1990s. I find that just as disgusting as Ustashe glorifiers and apologists, whether it's a rock singer like Thompson or the aforementioned Croatian political leaders. It is not that hard to acknowledge the crimes on both sides.

That said, ssin is right to question the legitimacy of the 'justice' system under Tito. Communist jurisprudence has never been about proving guilt, but about extracting elaborate confessions — nobody sentenced by communist authorities has ever been given a fair trial, and there's no shortage of literature on the topic. This doesn't mean Mihailovic was innocent when the communists executed him, but rather that the International Military Tribunal should have tried him for his crimes instead, ala the war criminals of the 1990s being tried at the Hague (even if some like Praljak tried to escape justice with dramatic suicides). Of course that is not a panacea, as the International Military Tribunal was itself highly problematic, with judges like Iona Nikitchenko playing a leading role and British interrogators being credibly accused of using torture against Rudolf Höss (who was in fact guilty despite this alleged miscarriage of justice), but it was still better than anything in Tito's Yugoslavia.
 

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Discussion Starter #108
I agree aca. Controversial events and personalities from the past shouldn't be judged by sham ideologies. Blue Heart should know this well, knowing about cardinal Stepinac case for example.

Atrocities in the 90s on Serbian side were mainly perpetrated by the ideological sons and disciples of communism btw. Starting from Milosevic all the way to Mladic. For me, they were always communists first. Serbian iconography was used like props from communist movies about WW2. ( 'Chetniks' from the 90s were exactly like chetniks from the Yugoslav ideological movies. Vojisav Seselj is known as 'red chetnik' for a good reason). I would rather not discuss history on this thread, but if I must...
 

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Discussion Starter #110
As some other people who profited in a number of ways from Balkan wars, people still stuck in the same picture of good and bad guys, Florian Bieber will have to understand that 90s are no more and that we have to look in the future in any possible way and with whoever wants to help, bad, stupid and imperfect as we are.
 

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Not at all, because I thankfully have no dog in the pointless, mutually destructive sectarianism that has long blighted relations between Croats and Serbs.

I agree that Chetnik apologists should be ashamed of themselves. Not just for the record of the historical Chetniks in the Second World War, but also for the atrocities perpetrated by Serbian irredentists in the 1990s. I find that just as disgusting as Ustashe glorifiers and apologists, whether it's a rock singer like Thompson or the aforementioned Croatian political leaders. It is not that hard to acknowledge the crimes on both sides.
That is a good point. However you don't really know what you are talking about when it comes down to Tuđman and Mesic, first of all putting these 2 in the same context is something absolutely hilarious on so many levels. Tuđman was the only leader from the 90s who actually fought against Ustashe in WW2. Sure he delivered some speeches that would be viewed as dodgy today but it was simply the occasional folklore back in the day. None of his actions remotely mirrored that. He was opposed to some Croatian units wearing Ustashe insignia, made antifascism a constitutional thing and surrounded himself with the worst possible UDBA personnel. The guy was either the biggest communist ever or he truly believed in some kind of "reconciliation" between Croats from 2 different WW2 sides.
As for that other guy you mentioned, it's so painfully apparent you have zero clue about him when you're mentioning him in this context. If you were to look for a single politician on this world who is a definition of changing sides and being ready to sell his mother to the first bidder then it's this guy. Literally everybody in Croatia knows this.


I agree aca. Controversial events and personalities from the past shouldn't be judged by sham ideologies. Blue Heart should know this well, knowing about cardinal Stepinac case for example.

Atrocities in the 90s on Serbian side were mainly perpetrated by the ideological sons and disciples of communism btw. Starting from Milosevic all the way to Mladic. For me, they were always communists first. Serbian iconography was used like props from communist movies about WW2. ( 'Chetniks' from the 90s were exactly like chetniks from the Yugoslav ideological movies. Vojisav Seselj is known as 'red chetnik' for a good reason). I would rather not discuss history on this thread, but if I must...
You are not comparing Stepinac and Mihailovic are you?
See it's a little bit more complicated than that. The "communism" in the 90s was a pure charade used to fuel and justify the greater Serbia ideology, or to make it simpler and more accurate, chetnik ideology. Ask any of these "people" you mentioned which commited those atrocities and they will tell you they were "defending Yugoslavia" mate. Of course, everyone with a brain knew already that communism and Yugoslavia are as dead as they could be, including them.
Chetniks and communists have been inseparable in many ways in later years which even you kinda pointed out well. Could even say this dates way back, even though chetniks basically collaborated with everyone to some degree in WW2. Of course there was no room for someone like Mihailovic after WW2, but nevertheless there were significant amounts of chetniks who defected to partisans, amongst other things.

Of course communist trials were a complete farce and so was that entire country, but that really is a lame justification for what has been happening in Serbia regarding the general mood on chetniks and their place in history. Heck, do you not realize that the Truman thing you mentioned in one post above is exactly what guys like Seselj use when someone speaks negatively about the chetniks? I don't want to give any definite statements on a personal level but I honestly doubt you could be labeled as a nationalist or someone brainless, so I don't know if that post was more hilarious or sad lol.
 

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Who's that Florian Bieber? Why is his opinion relevant?
Think ssin got a little bit angry because Florian seem like a german speaking Croat apologist guy. I mean, well, indeed he does look like that in his recent tweets. But on the other hand he is a good prof, I got some lectures from him, while his wife is Croat and that may make him a little bit biased on Balkan issues, he also heavily criticised the Croat govt when it comes to editing the history of Jasenovac, (intention to cancel commemorations in the town, among other stuff) letting Ustasha related politicians being in the cabinet etc. He is an honest academic. But I give it to ssin, acting a bit hyperbola re this agreement. Dunno what dog he has, I wonder.
 

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Think ssin got a little bit angry because Florian seem like a german speaking Croat apologist guy. I mean, well, indeed he does look like that in his recent tweets. But on the other hand he is a good prof, I got some lectures from him, while his wife is Croat and that may make him a little bit biased on Balkan issues, he also heavily criticised the Croat govt when it comes to editing the history of Jasenovac, (intention to cancel commemorations in the town, among other stuff) letting Ustasha related politicians being in the cabinet etc. He is an honest academic. But I give it to ssin, acting a bit hyperbola re this agreement. Dunno what dog he has, I wonder.
How much more can you lie?
 

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Not much.

1. Where is the editing of Jasenovac history by the Croatian government?
2. Find 1 pro-Ustasha related quote from the mentioned former minister that was not from 1990.

Thanks :wavey:
 

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1. Where is the editing of Jasenovac history by the Croatian government?
Thought I did not even need to address that. It's been a constant intention. Croat PM protesting the Social Democrat President's anti-Ustasha commitments.


Jasenovac unresolved

On Thursday, Prime Minister Andrej Plenkovic said that Milanovic's reaction was "not good ... I don't think it was alright and I don't think it was appropriate," Plenkovic told the press after Milanovic walked.

The right-wing prime minister also criticized Milanovic's speech made in Jasenovac last week. At the time, the president slammed the installation of a plaque bearing the Ustasha slogan and the names of 1990s independence fighters at the death camp, which happened several years ago. Under the pressure from the public, the plaque was later moved to a town some 10 kilometers (6 miles) away. Milanovic said the plaque should be thrown away completely.

On Thursday, Plenkovic said that everyone who died for Croatia "has my respect."

"You will never hear from any of us here that the plaque with the names of the defenders who died for Croatia should be thrown away," he told reporters.
2. that was not from 1990.
Ehhh? No shit Sherlock. He would be jailed now.
 

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Thought I did not even need to address that. It's been a constant intention. Croat PM protesting the Social Democrat President's anti-Ustasha commitments.


Ehhh? No shit Sherlock. He would be jailed now.
Do you understand what editing the history is? Again, give me an example of "editing the history" of Jasenovac from the Cro govt. I'm afraid you might need to look into one other government for that, the one where presidents like to add extra zeros to the official number of victims. That's editing history, pal.

The article you gave is hardly worth commenting. The PM is essentially a leftist and a smart careerist, accusing him of such BS is a total joke, and the ZDS slogan is such a complicated matter that I have no desire to waste my time trying to explain it to an outsider who doesn't understand the entire context. At least have this in mind when you mention it: The slogan is used today by Croatian right-wingers as a symbol of victory in the 1990s war. Others label it a fascist salute. The latest court battle over its legality ended in February with a divided court unable to reach a decision. It undoubtedly has double connotations.

No he would not be jailed, this is not Turkey, besides there are plenty of ways to be subtle about it and not break any law. He has condemned all totalitarian regimes mulitple times since he stepped on the political scenes and that's the only thing that matters, his personal opinion whatever it is is irrelevant. Fyi, this guy is a Croatian Muslim who's family has been killed and stripped off all of their properties by the communists as "class enemies".
 

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Bosniaks in Croatia were exposed to Ustasha ideology, sad but true. Yes Croats have been and still are extremely kind to Muslims, but with a price.

I lived in Zagreb, in Precko neighbourhood, and I did not even count how many times I have seen Za dom spremni, srbe na vrbe, Hitler voli Dinamo graffitis. I still have the photos with me. I was having a walk in and around lake Jarun, and it was all over the place. Serbs are no angel, (as it's been posted in this thread how nationalism and chetnik ideology are still lively and dangerous, albeit minority in SRB) but try to open your eyes. It's not even close to being vanished yet, in neither countries.

As for your Turkey diss, I have written all my reservations re. this government in Turkish politics thread. Try to refrain yourself thinking of my ethnic background.
 
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