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C'mon man, I remember always cheering for Cilic and Del Potro and being disappointed time after time when they got beaten by those 2.

Del Potro 3-11 Djokovic
Del Potro 2-5 Murray

Combined 5-16

Cilic 0-14 Djokovic
Cilic 2-10 Murray

Combined 2-24

This is the matchup issue I'm talking about. It's clear as day. 195cm+ guys are screwed vs Djokovic/Murray type. And I don't see Zverev finding a "cure" against it.

That's the big point I'm trying to make.
It isn't match-up LOL.
Djokovic/Murray would have a commanding lead in H2H over 99% of the players as well becoz of how gd they are. Del Potro is a tier below them. And Cilic is tiersss below them. The H2H just reflects their career achievement. nothing to do with match-up.
 

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These H2Hs need context. del Potro's career has been destroyed by systematic injuries ever since he turned 21, even so whenever he was fit he was never outmatched by those 2 or anyone else, whenever he lost it was in very close matches. Anyway, it'd be highly pessimistic to predict Zverev having his career destroyed by injuries...

As for Cilic, he just rarely beats top 10 players in general, unfortunately despite his USO title he never managed to establish himself as a consistent top 10 player. It's not noteworthy that a player with Cilic's overall record rarely beats two player who've been top 5 most of their careers.

I do agree there are challenges that come with being that tall, namely concerning movement and more importantly recovery between matches, it's tougher for big guys to recover between matches... but I'd not focus too much on Djokovic/Murray, those two just beat everybody most of the time, regardless of their size. That's because they're generally better or at least more consistent than the rest of the field. There was never a time when del Potro and Cilic were beating everyone else just coming up short against them; del Potro had other well known problems (ie staying fit), and Cilic well he never managed to become a consistent feature in the top 10.
What always bothered me is how well Djokovic/Murray neutralised their serves and how many neutral rallies were played on the big guy's service games. The thing is, Djokovic/Murray always set their rhythm, not the other way around. The only thing to do is to blast them off the court like Wawrinka did in 2 finals, but that requires a lot of skill ,especially in bo5.

You made some good points and I'd like to believe that there's isn't such a big matchup issue, but I just can't.

And it is weird how the big guys get injured easier. It already started with Kyrgios and Kokkinakis. Not just their ligaments but also look at what mono did to Ancic and Soderling. It's a real shame too. I've always been a fan of big tennis.
 

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MTF... :lol:

After the big 4, nobody has ever lived up to MTF hype. Ever. This result means nothing. Wait until a youngster wins a 1000 or a slam, or at least has a big scalp of a top player. This is nothing. Simon has had worse losses to worse players.

Zverev is 2M tall. He will never achieve anything of significance in tennis. Too tall.
Yes. I would only consider them legit contenders for slams if they are able to at least reach a 1000 final or beat a top 4 player in GS in BO5. It is nothing special to beat a no.15 guy who has a bad day. Hell even Gasquet was beating Federer on clay in 1000 and winning 250s at this age and he has yet to reach a slam final after the "breakthrough".
 

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It isn't match-up LOL.
Djokovic/Murray would have a commanding lead in H2H over 99% of the players as well becoz of how gd they are. Del Potro is a tier below them. And Cilic is tiersss below them. The H2H just reflects their career achievement. nothing to do with match-up.
Alright. But tell me, is it that 2m guys just don't have the physical abilities to have great movement,ROS, defense like Djokovic/Murray and therefore, good enough overall game or there just never was a talented enough 2m tall guy?

Look at all the tennis greats. No giants. Tallest #1 in history is Safin at 193cm. He was #1 for 9 weeks.

Who are the greatest tall guys? Safin, Del Potro, Soderling, Berdych, Cilic, Ivanisevic, Krajicek? None of them are close to the all time greats, even though most of them played when surfaces were faster which suited them more.

When I say matchup I just don't mean the styles, I'm talking about physical predisposition that determines the potential of their overall game. You don't have to be taller than 185cm to have a great attacking game (Sampras/Federer) but you can't have a great defense while being 195+
 

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What always bothered me is how well Djokovic/Murray neutralised their serves and how many neutral rallies were played on the big guy's service games. The thing is, Djokovic/Murray always set their rhythm, not the other way around. The only thing to do is to blast them off the court like Wawrinka did in 2 finals, but that requires a lot of skill ,especially in bo5.

You made some good points and I'd like to believe that there's isn't such a big matchup issue, but I just can't.

And it is weird how the big guys get injured easier. It already started with Kyrgios and Kokkinakis. Not just their ligaments but also look at what mono did to Ancic and Soderling. It's a real shame too. I've always been a fan of big tennis.
Djokovic and Murray have just been much better than del Potro/Cilic through their careers. Both del Potro and Cilic have the firepower to beat them but it only happens sporadically because:

(1) in del Potro's case, he's rarely ever been healthy ever since turning 21yo

(2) in Cilic's case, he rarely ever plays close to his best

The comparison is pointless because any big guy becoming a top player will likely be much better than Cilic (on a consistent basis) and nowhere near as much of a sicknote as del Potro.

IMO, injuries (and recovery between matches) are a much bigger concern; aside from Berdych, whose consistency at the top and general health is absolutely unprecedented for a big guy (and almost any player really, Berdych is basically indestructible!) big guys have always struggled staying fit: del Potro, Safin, Soderling, Ancic, now we see signs of it with Raonic, Kyrgios...

I think it's because tennis is a sport where you do a lot of short sprints and changes of direction, it's tougher on the limbs of tally, heavy player than their shorter counterparts. That's the one flaw of tennis as a sport; while in football for instance you can see Messi the midget make everyone else look foolish on a weekly basis, in tennis there's an ideal 'height range' to be a dominant player; if you're too short, it will hinder your serve and overall firepower too much (see Nishikori, Nalbandian...), if you're too tall, it will hinder your movement, recovery between matches and make you injury prone...

Alright. But tell me, is it that 2m guys just don't have the physical abilities to have great movement,ROS, defense like Djokovic/Murray and therefore, good enough overall game or there just never was a talented enough 2m tall guy?

Look at all the tennis greats. No giants. Tallest #1 in history is Safin at 193cm. He was #1 for 9 weeks.

Who are the greatest tall guys? Safin, Del Potro, Soderling, Berdych, Cilic, Ivanisevic, Krajicek? None of them are close to the all time greats, even though most of them played when surfaces were faster which suited them more.

When I say matchup I just don't mean the styles, I'm talking about physical predisposition that determines the potential of their overall game. You don't have to be taller than 185cm to have a great attacking game (Sampras/Federer) but you can't have a great defense while being 195+
As said in the previous post, tennis isn't a friendly sport for giants. del Potro was 20 when he beat Fedal back to back to win a GS, but then his body couldn't handle it... Safin also had constant injury problems and his knee basically blew as he turned 25.

The other guys you mentioned were never really hyped as potential #1 players, but still most of them struggled a lot with injuries.

I think an overlooked aspect is recovery between matches, in tennis you have to be ready to play the following day or 2 days after, it's considerably tougher for big, heavy guys to properly recover.
 

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Alright. But tell me, is it that 2m guys just don't have the physical abilities to have great movement,ROS, defense like Djokovic/Murray and therefore, good enough overall game or there just never was a talented enough 2m tall guy?

Look at all the tennis greats. No giants. Tallest #1 in history is Safin at 193cm. He was #1 for 9 weeks.

Who are the greatest tall guys? Safin, Del Potro, Soderling, Berdych, Cilic, Ivanisevic, Krajicek? None of them are close to the all time greats, even though most of them played when surfaces were faster which suited them more.

When I say matchup I just don't mean the styles, I'm talking about physical predisposition that determines the potential of their overall game. You don't have to be taller than 185cm to have a great attacking game (Sampras/Federer) but you can't have a great defense while being 195+
Of coz players who are too tall find it harder to succeed.

But problem is: why are you comparing them with Djokovic/Murray only? The chance for taller guys to upset shorter aggressive players is about the same as that of shorter defensive player. And tall guys would have a much less impressive career than shorter attacking players as well, not just shorter defensive players.

Hence, there is no causal relationship that shorter defensive player is a bad match-up for tall guys just because tall guys have a tougher time to succeed. The fact that tall guys have a tougher time to succeed put them in the same inferior position against BOTH shorter aggressive AND defensive players.
 

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What can i say, i would be much more happy to see a 1-2 times slam champion with a great offence, than a GOAT candidate who plays a defencive tennis almost all the time.
 

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I think an overlooked aspect is recovery between matches, in tennis you have to be ready to play the following day or 2 days after, it's considerably tougher for big, heavy guys to properly recover.
Still. You mentioned Berdych as an exception. And there's also Cilic who never retired in a match in his career, or he retired just once. Not 100% sure. (even though he was in SF or better of a GS only 3 times)

But I like the way you look at it. There are always those small factors that are overlooked but still affect matches, matchups and the sport in general.
 

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Still. You mentioned Berdych as an exception. And there's also Cilic who never retired in a match in his career, or he retired just once. Not 100% sure. (even though he was in SF or better of a GS only 3 times)

But I like the way you look at it. There are always those small factors that are overlooked but still affect matches, matchups and the sport in general.
Berdych is a freak though, he's never injured, he's basically indestructible and amazingly consistent. In Miami, he'll play his 50th (!) consecutive Masters 1000, that's an all-time record, he'd also end his career with the record for most Slams played consecutively if not for Federer.

This is very much an exception, you just have to look at every other giant in tennis history.

If you notice, big guys are often associated with having higher peaks but being inconsistent to varying degrees. I think that's the main struggle compared to players like Djokovic and Murray; the latter two aren't necessarily better at their best, they just manage to play close to their best on a tournament to tournament basis.

The giants often play one big tournament and then get injured, or one great match and then can't recover properly and replicate that level in the next one. It's a very tough ask for a giant to be a dominant #1, you'd need someone with del Potro's game (consistent, mentally strong) + Berdych's freakish ability to stay healthy.
 

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Amazing match. :yeah:
I usually hate watching any match with Simon -- he totally sucks the life out of his opponent like a vampire :lol:. That's not a personal attack on him; that is just a fact about his playing style.

But there was lots of excitement here, some great passing shots and just generally loads of drama. Zverev at times looked like he was on the verge of losing the will to live, but somehow managed to keep reviving himself. Hope won't be too flat in the Monfils match.
 

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IKR. In fact, just actually watch the youngsters' matches. They, especially Zverev, did show some potentials here and there. Give them time to develop and improve. Don't let Slade's stupid posts blind you over and over again about how pathetic these youngsters are.
That tard is on my ignore list, so no risk of that happening...:)
 

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Berdych is a freak though, he's never injured, he's basically indestructible and amazingly consistent. In Miami, he'll play his 50th (!) consecutive Masters 1000, that's an all-time record, he'd also end his career with the record for most Slams played consecutively if not for Federer.

This is very much an exception, you just have to look at every other giant in tennis history.

If you notice, big guys are often associated with having higher peaks but being inconsistent to varying degrees. I think that's the main struggle compared to players like Djokovic and Murray; the latter two aren't necessarily better at their best, they just manage to play close to their best on a tournament to tournament basis.

The giants often play one big tournament and then get injured, or one great match and then can't recover properly and replicate that level in the next one. It's a very tough ask for a giant to be a dominant #1, you'd need someone with del Potro's game (consistent, mentally strong) + Berdych's freakish ability to stay healthy.
I associate this back to the physical predispositions on which they big guys have to base their game. They can't defend like Nadal, Djokovic, Murray and Federer. So, instead of getting grinded to death, they play all out high risk attacking tennis. If they're talented enough, they can win slams (Del Potro, Cilic) but there's no way in hell they'll end up #1 at the end of the year when you have players like Djokovic and Murray around.

To go a bit off topic, imo, this is also why most big guys are considered unclutch and mental midgets. It's hard to play attacking tennis when you're under pressure. Anyone who ever played tennis knows the feeling when your hand(actually wrist) gets tight. It's harder to generate the same topspin as when you're completely loose. Is it a wonder that Djokovic, Nadal, Murray, Coric are considered clutch? In 9/10 times, when the going gets hard, this 4 fall back, defend and play low risk tennis. And most of the time, it works.
 

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I wish he is 4 or 5 inches shorter than he actually is so he can move better on the court like Nadal, Djokovic, and Federer. Among the young prospects, Coric's height is perfect for moving.

At this time, I am guessing Zverev would become a player similar to Raonic. Not getting my hopes up yet.
 

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I wish he is 4 or 5 inches shorter than he actually is so he can move better on the court like Nadal, Djokovic, and Federer. Among the young prospects, Coric's height is perfect for moving.

At this time, I am guessing Zverev would become a player similar to Raonic. Not getting my hopes up yet.
Have you watched him play? He moves not much worse than Coric,has an unstable serve,a great BH......Actually he's kind of a reverse Raonic :)
 
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