Mens Tennis Forums banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,930 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
We are not even talking about Grass ground/worn into Clay-ish zones and thus hampering their stiff bodies/ bad movement in latter stages of tournament..These duo can't even make it out of R2/R3 of MMs events, when the green stuff is still lush, while having at their disposal easily the 2 biggest Serve on the tour..

Isner @Wimbledon : A 1R A 2R 2R 1R 2R
[email protected] : 2R 2R 2R

This in my opinion a more flagrant case than the parody of Clayray who at least doesn't have a transcending weapon (mainly an attacking FH) to succeed on the surface..

Discuss..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,423 Posts
they both suck obviously i said in some other thread that Ivo is far more dangerous on grass courts. Isner is to big guy - not quick enough, bad movement, slice to his legs and he is in trouble his 2nd serve deadly kick serve is less effective here. His net game is joke

Raonic - bad movement-footwork, the same 2nd serve kick serve less effective that on HC and clay, return sucks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,734 Posts
Only because you're a servebot doesn't mean you can play good on Grass.

That's pretty clear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,095 Posts
servebotting should be enough for some wins on grass.

Take for example Ivo Karlovic.

The curious case of servebotting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,930 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Only because you're a servebot doesn't mean you can play good on Grass.

That's pretty clear.
As clear as my qualification that nobody is asking them to be multiple Wimbledon Champion or perennial contenders in the mould of Goran Ivanesvic ..They flat out SUCK..i.e can't even win some TBs on their way to R3/R4 :bigwave:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,452 Posts
What's baffling about it? Milos is a baseline player who is better when he has more time to hit his shots and when the bounce is higher. Grass provides neither of these things for him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,889 Posts
servebotting should be enough for some wins on grass.

Take for example Ivo Karlovic.

The curious case of servebotting.
Ivo can do the next step - volley. They can't.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,930 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
What's baffling about it? Milos is a baseline player who is better when he has more time to hit his shots and when the bounce is higher. Grass provides neither of these things for him.
Sounds legit..Suddenly his serve should not be a factor at all on the surface..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,423 Posts
servebotting should be enough for some wins on grass.

Take for example Ivo Karlovic.

The curious case of servebotting.
no, ivo is different level on grass, he is dangerous to anybody, because he does it well. serve is lethal, volleying all the time, slicing from bh-yes his bh sucks so he must slice but at least he give himself time to go to the net or other player to have it tougher to pass him after low bounce after slice and so on.

after all Ivo made Wimby QF, something that neither Isner or Raonic couldn´t and think never will do
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,452 Posts
Sounds legit..Suddenly his serve should not be a factor at all on the surface..
I think grass is actually a bit of equalizer in that regard. It reduces the difference in effectiveness between his serve and everyone else's (his is elite and virtually unreturnable on every surface). If Milos served and volleyed regularly, it would help, but that has never been his game.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57,595 Posts

Isner isn't bad on grass, just Wimbledon. Totally unable to break and has to play long 3/5 matches, which he sucks at
Raonic is another story, he moves and reacts very poorly on the surface.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
9,211 Posts
Sounds legit..Suddenly his serve should not be a factor at all on the surface..

You're becoming baffling.

It's logical, but you guys obviously never play on grass across Europe?

Isner is actually more capable of doing damage on a claycourt than a grasscourt, partiuclarly when we are talking from an instance of playing match in match out for a given fortnight.

Look at it like this. Whilst on grass it is easier for Isner to hit more 'unreturnable' serves and become less engaged in rallies, the fact is from a returning perspective, he is pretty much fucked. Isner breaks serve generally by running around his backhand and really crushing his forehand, he does these off weak floated second serves. On a grass-court, you just cannot do this as easily, particularly if mobility isn't your strength and you're sized 6 feet 9 inches tall. His backhand isn't in existence, right? so players will always play it to his backhand. On clay you have time to HIDE your backhand and keep onto your forehand with good footwork, not on grass though, on grass you have to play the backhand unless the ball is coming to you as a soft speed.

So even though it's easier for player's like Isner and Raonic to boom aces and unreturnables on the grass, the challenge of returning for them goes in the other direction and becomes harder. Serving becomes easier and breaking serve becomes even harder. Alright, Isner is probably the king of tiebreaks, but can you imagine Isner winning every single match on grass 7-6, 7-6, 7-6 in order to get through to the 2nd week of wimbledon? There is the underlying problem as far as Isner goes, his return game takes a huge, negative blow when he is on the grass and that puts strain on his serve to constantly keep to a full-on, high level of intensity throughout 3 sets. It's just not realistic.

Raonic's problem is similar, in that he finds it difficult on return as his mobility isn't great, but his major problem is his strike-zone. His strike-zone is at around shoulder to chest height and for a guy 6 feet 9, you're going to be lucky to get many balls arriving to you at waist height on the grass, let alone even chest or shoulder height. So he's striking the ball outside of his strike-zone from the baseline and is also therefore forced to play outside of his comfort zone. Then there's also the issue of player's slicing the ball and the ball skidding off the grass and Raonic having to bend his knees and get down-low each time to slice it back, it's tough.

You're only looking at it from one narrow view-point.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
9,211 Posts
Fact is, both players have to break serve now and again, they both can't just hope to win 7-6, 7-6, 7-6 each time.... and whilst it's easier for them to hold serve, it's even harder for them to break. Catch 22. In it;s entirety, I'd say it works out less to their benefit over the longhaul.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
9,211 Posts
Piledrive, you're only looking at it from a serving perspective. On a slower court they are at an advantage, because they can serve unreturnables and aces, which others cannot. On a faster court like grass, where the balls stay low, they can also serve unreturnables and aces too... but AS CAN THEIR opponents.... so they are being more easily matched in the 'cheap-points' department. That's a huge factor, when you consider what they stand ahead of their opponents on and when their game is based around being able to win more cheap-points.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,325 Posts

Isner isn't bad on grass, just Wimbledon. Totally unable to break and has to play long 3/5 matches, which he sucks at
Raonic is another story, he moves and reacts very poorly on the surface.
Most of Isner's wins on the surface come from Newport - one of the weakest ATP tournaments on tour, where he gets wins against all kinds of mugs. So I wouldn't take his W/L overall ratio on grass as some kind of indicator that he is really good on that surface.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,452 Posts
Fact is, both players have to break serve now and again, they both can't just hope to win 7-6, 7-6, 7-6 each time.... and whilst it's easier for them to hold serve, it's even harder for them to break. Catch 22. In it;s entirety, I'd say it works out less to their benefit over the longhaul.
Yes, they can already generally hold their serves consistently on any surface. So grass doesn't help them much in that regard, but it helps everyone else get through their own service games without issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,139 Posts
Say what you want about the low bouncing balls and bla bla. The truth is, these guys should be doing better on grass. If you look at that win-loss sheet for Isner's career he's just notoriously not as good in grand slam events as he is in the smaller tournaments or master series. Raonic historically has done better in the slams and is much younger than Isner and has time to improve his grass court tactics.

Tall players have done well on Grass, most recently Berdych and Delpo have had some not shabby results there. I would say the grass doesn't bounce as low as it used to and that perhaps it's easier for the taller players than it's ever been.

Isner and Roanic best surfaces are hard court because that's what they grew up on playing, that's what their games have been molded for. Their records on all surfaces outside hard aren't as good... but like I said I expect Raonic to improve his results at Wimbledon in the next few years.
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top