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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Lots of Polish friends here, what is going on guys? I heard many people are in the streets, voicing their support for the Igor Tuleya the judge and their discontent towards govt's new plans to seize the control of judicial system.

What is your take on? European concerns are valid or is this yet another 'external intervention' that conservative Poles (people who are not in the streets) are right to side with their governing party.

So this is what happend today:

 

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That guy you mention is sleazy af, I wouldn't go to the street to defend him. This is the saddest part, a lot of the people who run these protests are morally doubtful themselves and shouldn't be high profile judges.

Generally every government has always been putting their own people to valuable positions in the justice system (and media as well) silently. What this one started doing at first was no different, but because it's a controversial government and not in sync with the Western agenda, their actions actually received a lot of publicity, first protests emerged etc.

It's not like what they did was good, no. It's just that every fucking government did exactly the same thing lol (you couldn't ask the better person - I'm from a lawyer family so I've been following it for DECADES from a very close distance).

But eventually the situation escalated and all hell broke loose with some retarded ideas going on, like that prosecutors must officially rat on judges when they don't think judge is giving a verdict prosecutor thinks should be given etc.

Btw, my mom is strictly apolitical and survived as high position prosecutor through 40 years of hurricanes of all the possible regimes (while her bosses and colleagues went in and out like revolving door with every new minister of justice) and survived recently the forced retirement of all the aged employees. (because someone needs to do real work like solving crimes too, not just doing the political business)

So I guess that's all you need to know :) In Polish justice system you have some truly amazing, honest, wise and sensible people, you will get some lazy ones who got a nomination and can't get removed so fuck it all, some career opportunists (could be great as lawyers but doubtful as people) and some corrupted ones as well.
 

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Natalia pretty much summed it up. It’s true that our justice system needs some changes cause it hasn’t been very effective but this goverment really crossed the line with some of his actions which are dangerous to the independency of judges as the third power party. On the other hand people who protest are often dubious themselves and I wouldn’t trust some of those bastards if I were looking for independent opinion.
 

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More bullying by the unaccountable European Commission.

The Commission should have no say in the internal politics of Poland. That is a matter for the Polish people, who re-elected their current government only 3 months ago. PiS had been pursuing judiciary reform long before this election, so if it's such an actionable offence, they would have been voted out in October. But they weren't.

I don't know Poland well enough, but I would guess that PiS voters are generally more likely to defend their country than to side with a hostile foreign power like the European Commission. This type of meddling often helps governments to reaffirm their legitimacy with their base, and can even increase their support if the opposition behaves like a fifth column with more loyalty to an international political-economic bloc than their own country.
 

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More bullying by the unaccountable European Commission.

The Commission should have no say in the internal politics of Poland. That is a matter for the Polish people, who re-elected their current government only 3 months ago. PiS had been pursuing judiciary reform long before this election, so if it's such an actionable offence, they would have been voted out in October. But they weren't.

I don't know Poland well enough, but I would guess that PiS voters are generally more likely to defend their country than to side with a hostile foreign power like the European Commission. This type of meddling often helps governments to reaffirm their legitimacy with their base, and can even increase their support if the opposition behaves like a fifth column with more loyalty to an international political-economic bloc than their own country.

LoL.

It's called a 'Treaty', wich is like a binding contract among States and becomes a Law of the undersigning countries after ratified by national parliaments.

There is always a termination clause so a country can get out as yours is in the process of doing. What you cannot do is to take what you like and dish what you don't. If Polish people decide, through its elected goverment, that Poland is better off outside UE they can do it. If they want to be in there are certain obligations like an independent judiciary.

Im not a fan of UE as it is now, let alone of European Commision but this BS of "hostile foreign power" is just too much. It's also ridiculous in this context, Poles know very well what a real hostile foreign power is and for sure many remember what a goverment-dependent judiciary means.

Please Brexit ASAP an let Europe alone, no one needs a pain in the ass.

(not personal, talking of countries)
 

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Natalia pretty much summed it up. It’s true that our justice system needs some changes cause it hasn’t been very effective but this goverment really crossed the line with some of his actions which are dangerous to the independency of judges as the third power party. On the other hand people who protest are often dubious themselves and I wouldn’t trust some of those bastards if I were looking for independent opinion.
Perfect short version of my post :)

I don't know if what is happening in Poland deserves EU intervention. Possibly yes, because the line is crossed. Hard. But I struggle to support the main protesters and I am not happy those people are supposed to be the face of the justice system because there's so much dirt on them.

Meanwhile there are so many fantastic lawyers with high moral ground. Those who really believe their job is a mission. Same as doctors, nurses, fire fighters. But those are not the ones you'll see in the limelight or ever hear them speak about politics at all. In this country no one gets prime positions for being the best at their job, so...
 

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Let me put it this way: all 3, Babiš, Orbán and Morawiecki are bastards and for the sake of their countries should resign the sooner the better.

Of course all these pigs wanna remain in power so they do everything to control the juidical system. That effort we are witnessing in Poland thereby.
 

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I think Duda (supported by the governing party PiS) will get around 40-42% and he’ll face Trzaskowski (supported by the main opposition party) in the 2nd round in 2 weeks who’ll get around 28-30% on Sunday.
According to the latest polls the final round is pretty open but my bet is Duda will squeeze to a win by 2-3% advantage.
For the sake of democracy it would be much better if he lost cause it’s not good when all the power is in the hands of one party. If Duda wins we might drift towards autocracy similiar to that in Hungary with Orban and Fidesz.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
I think Duda (supported by the governing party PiS) will get around 40-42% and he’ll face Trzaskowski (supported by the main opposition party) in the 2nd round in 2 weeks who’ll get around 28-30% on Sunday.
According to the latest polls the final round is pretty open but my bet is Duda will squeeze to a win by 2-3% advantage.
For the sake of democracy it would be much better if he lost cause it’s not good when all the power is in the hands of one party. If Duda wins we might drift towards autocracy similiar to that in Hungary with Orban and Fidesz.
that would be pretty terrible. Orban's way would hurt Poles badly in every aspect of daily life. Rooting for Trzaskowski 🤞Heard he has done a tremendous job as the mayor of Warsaw.
 

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that would be pretty terrible. Orban's way would hurt Poles badly in every aspect of daily life. Rooting for Trzaskowski 🤞Heard he has done a tremendous job as the mayor of Warsaw.
no he hasn't and he's involved with some shady apartment mafia shit, as probably every mayor of Warsaw ever.
But he is super handsome and his dad was a fucking great jazz musician, maybe even Poland's best

Honestly, his party is trash, German puppets, big business supporters and mafia, though I admit this guy as a person is less cringeworthy than the woman he replaced as his party's candidate. At least he would look good at news outlet.

We're basically choosing between conservatives slowly descending into madness and a puppet who will hurt Poland economically for sure. Pick your poison.

Out of all this madness, LGBT people are actually quite safe on national level politics, despite whatever you may have heard. It's mostly the national media's propaganda reaching levels unseen before (that includes removing a song from the #1 on a radio chart - yes you read it right) and the corruption is so badly covered it hurts my eyes. They just don't have people smart enough to pull this shit in white gloves.

Redeeming quality for Duda and his party is that they were the first ones to really improve the employees situation instead of talking about it, and they also launched a social program that probably every civilized country has and Poland didn't have.

That's why I can't straight up hate them and that's why some left-winged oriented people will support him with a very heavy heart in the second round, because the other party ruled for 8 years and proved to be an establishment party, did nothing for the people.

The truth is, most people care more to live their life above poverty level than they care about gay marriages. It's something 17 year old raging k-pop fans on Twitter don't understand, probably because they still get pocket money from their horrible Duda-voting fascist parents. It's something superstar liberal journalists don't understand either, because they get their salaries from somewhere else than shit retail, factory or cleaning jobs.

Funny thing as well, when some hypothesis scenarios were discussed on Twitter, Duda voters often mentioned the... left-wing openly gay candidate as their 2nd choice. Not the nationalist guy, but the gay left-wing guy. Precisely for the economical reasons.

And this word "fascist" just gets thrown around, it's like number one word right now on social media, for everything you do: you wear braids, you're a fascist because it's cultural appropriation, you use teeth whitening toothpaste, you're a fascist supremacist, because it contains the word "white". If you think you're a normal person who doesn't harm anyone but doesn't go to the protests, you're a fascist because fascism started with "so called normal people". I am mostly a left-wing person in my approach, both socially and culturally, not to mention I am a part of LGBT+ community (however, I'm also a true traditional Polish patriot, an extremely rare combination, but we do exist; left-wing has a beautiful history in Poland :D). So I'm a fascist too. Fine, stick a fucking fork in me (That's the conclusion you end up reaching at some point, you stop to care, and heavy words lose their value).

If you think I'm making this up, just go on Twitter. I am sick.

Now, why I don't feel like supporting that particular left-wing candidate and didn't even bother to the elections. Guy dodgy af. Not only in fact he's more liberal than left-wing economically, but also beat his mother in the past. How come he was selected as a candidate is beyond me (probably because became famous for being gay), several left-wing people thought like me and didn't even bother voting for him. Guy has zero credibility. His result came as super low.

If you ask me, I'd just nuke all of it. I'm not even a symmetrist. I've just reached the point where I started to relate to the Bond villains. I would just nuke.

Sorry, I'm out of this thread. No need to quote or tag me.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
This one was published at The Economist a few days before the election, but still relevant since the second round is two weeks away.

Gay “ideology” is worse than communism, says Poland’s president



Facing a tough election, Andrzej Duda needs enemies

Poles will go to the polls on June 28th to vote for their next president, a mostly ceremonial position but with the crucial power to veto laws. The election will be the latest popularity contest between the ruling populist Law and Justice (PiS) party and the centrist Civic Platform, which governed from 2007 to 2015. PiS lost ground in parliamentary elections last year, and it looks as though the contest will go to a run-off on July 12th.

The two candidates, barring a big surprise, will be Andrzej Duda, the PiS-backed incumbent, and Rafal Trzaskowski, Warsaw’s mayor, who joined the race at the last minute. If the liberal, pro-European Mr Trzaskowski beats Mr Duda, his supporters will surely greet it as the beginning of the end of PiS rule.

This will be Poland’s second shot at holding an election during the covid crisis, after the original exercise set for May was called off. Mr Duda faces five main challengers, all men, ranging from the centre-left to the nationalist far-right. Like Mr Duda they all came of age after 1989, a generational shift in Polish politics which has long been dominated by politicians shaped by the struggle against communism.

Mr Trzaskowski joined the race after Civic Plaform’s previous candidate, Malgorzata Kidawa-Blonska, pulled out in mid-May after a lacklustre campaign in which support for her dropped to single digits. On paper, he and Mr Duda are remarkably similar. Both were born in 1972; Mr Duda to a pair of academics in Krakow and Mr Trzaskowski in Warsaw, the son of a jazz composer. Both have doctorates and served as members of the European Parliament. (Mr Trzaskowski also served as Europe minister in 2014-15.)

Yet their politics have placed them on opposite sides in the bitter struggle between PiS and Civic Platform that has gripped the country since the mid-2000s. Mr Duda’s unexpected election as president in 2015 paved the way for PiS’s return to power later that year after eight years in opposition (he resigned from the party after his victory). Three years later, Mr Trzaskowski’s victory in the Warsaw mayoral election, crushing the PiS candidate, showed the limits of the ruling party’s brand of populism.

Mr Trzaskowski won in Warsaw by appealing to liberals. Soon after taking office he signed a declaration in favour of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) rights, with proposals including a shelter in Warsaw, anti-discrimination measures and more sex education in schools. This led to a backlash from PiS, supported by the Catholic church. Poland faces an “attack on the Polish family”, warned Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the party’s leader.

Beating them at their own game

This time Mr Trzaskowski is casting his net wider. He is appealing to moderate conservatives tired of PiS’s radical streak and its disregard for checks and balances (especially judicial ones), which the European Commission has warned undermines the rule of law. “Conservatism rejects radicalism, conservatism rejects nationalism,” he told a crowd in Krakow, Mr Duda’s hometown, on June 6th. He has also pledged to support the PiS government on matters of state interest. The president cannot be in “total opposition” to the government, he says. However PiS does not have nearly enough seats in parliament to override a presidential veto, which could well be applied on a number of other issues.

Suddenly on the defensive, Mr Duda is trying to mobilise socially conservative voters by presenting himself as the defender of the traditional family (56% of Poles oppose gay marriage and 76% are against adoption by same-sex couples, according to a poll last year). LGBT is an “ideology” worse than communism, he told supporters on June 13th in Brzeg, a town in south-western Poland. A “Family Card” of policies presented by him last week includes continuing hefty handouts for children introduced by PiS and not allowing gay couples to marry or adopt. He has been supported by the public-television broadcaster, which PiS took over shortly after it came to power in 2015. “LGBT ideology is destroying the family,” read a caption on its evening news programme also on June 13th.

Since Poland’s rapid and strict lockdown in mid-March, the government has eased most of its coronavirus restrictions. Infections remain lower than in many European countries (30,701 cases and 1,286 deaths, according to official figures from June 17th), despite some recent new outbreaks among coal miners. The government has introduced measures to protect businesses and workers from the economic effects of the epidemic, including a 100bn zloty ($25bn, or around 4.5% of GDP) support package for local firms.

Mr Duda continues to lead in the polls, but the distance between him and Mr Trzaskowski is narrowing. One poll conducted on on June 12th and 13th gives him 40.7%, ahead of Mr Trzaskowski’s 28%, with the other candidates below 10%. With no candidate above 50%, a run-off seems inevitable. The polls suggest that it will be close. The winner will not only claim the presidential palace, but shape whether Poland becomes more open or closed. ■
 
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