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Discussion Starter #1
I honestly think MTF would like this one...

Often, users are banned for 'trolling'; however, banning under this reasoning is often unfair and unnecessary. Take TDoc and pfl for example, they get bans for saying the same things repeatedly. So why would one single post be ban-worthy while others are allowed without punishment. The honest answer to this problem is that trolling is harmless, and if it were to be worthy of ban then it could fall under another infraction such as personal attack, discriminatory remarks, etc.

Thank you :hatoff:
 

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Well, the subject of trolling is interesting to say the least. From urban dictionary:

The art of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly pissing people off, usually via the internet, using dialogue. Trolling does not mean just making rude remarks: Shouting swear words at someone doesn't count as trolling; it's just flaming, and isn't funny. Spam isn't trolling either; it pisses people off, but it's lame.

The most essential part of trolling is convincing your victim that either a) truly believe in what you are saying, no matter how outrageous, or b) give your victim malicious instructions, under the guise of help.
Trolling requires deceiving; any trolling that doesn't involve deceiving someone isn't trolling at all; it's just stupid. As such, your victim must not know that you are trolling; if he does, you are an unsuccessful troll.
So, actually, the infraction must remain, but the punishment for what we are giving should be for forum disruptions, personal attacks, etc. and not trolling. In a sense you are right, Moderators should stop giving out incorrect punishment for trolling and give out punishment for forum disruptions which is the case most of the time (posters deliberately going off topic or bringing the Big 4 in every conversation). But the infraction should stay in case members use it as a tactic to deceive other posters.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
So how is deceiving harmful? So you're saying sarcasm isn't accepted? Because most 'trolling' on here is either a. Sarcasm (which should always be allowed) or b. Hyperbolic (i.e posting excessively about a topic like Federer or vulturing) Both of which are widely accepted in society, so why not here?
 

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You are proposing deceiving to be allowed? How is that constructive to an internet forum? This is not a chat room, it's an information database. This is not facebook. If you feel that rules are hindering you from maliciously making fun of people, you should consider moving to facebook. This forum is owned by a company. This company could lose its license to keep it online if it allowed anything that everyone considers is fun. Of course, responsibility is the most difficult concept for MTF to grasp.

Sure, sarcasm and fun are allowed, but there's a line that is drawn. Go beyond it at your own peril doesn't stick here. Lawsuits have been present for less.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
You are proposing deceiving to be allowed? How is that constructive to an internet forum?
How are 99% of posters constructive to the forum? They're not. I'm saying that 'deceiving' is being treated as HARMLESS sarcasm/exaggerating. A lot of the things you ban under 'trolling' for aren't even deceiving! How is TDoc posting about how he doesn't like Fraud deceiving? How is pfl posting about vulturing deceiving?
This is not a chat room, it's an information database.
Oh come the hell on. This is complete bullshit and you know that, Marv.
This is not facebook. If you feel that rules are hindering you from maliciously making fun of people, you should consider moving to facebook. This forum is owned by a company. This company could lose its license to keep it online if it allowed anything that everyone considers is fun. Of course, responsibility is the most difficult concept for MTF to grasp.

Sure, sarcasm and fun are allowed, but there's a line that is drawn. Go beyond it at your own peril doesn't stick here. Lawsuits have been present for less.
How did you get from 'deceiving' to 'maliciously making fun of people'? There's sarcasm, and then there's personally attacking other people. Sure, sarcasm/trolling/hyperbolizing can lead to making fun of people, but more often then not you're banning before it even comes to that.

P.S. In what way do you think I make fun of people? I'm genuinely curious.
 

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How are 99% of posters constructive to the forum? They're not. I'm saying that 'deceiving' is being treated as HARMLESS sarcasm/exaggerating. A lot of the things you ban under 'trolling' for aren't even deceiving! How is TDoc posting about how he doesn't like Fraud deceiving? How is pfl posting about vulturing deceiving?

Oh come the hell on. This is complete bullshit and you know that, Marv.


How did you get from 'deceiving' to 'maliciously making fun of people'? There's sarcasm, and then there's personally attacking other people. Sure, sarcasm/trolling/hyperbolizing can lead to making fun of people, but more often then not you're banning before it even comes to that.

P.S. In what way do you think I make fun of people? I'm genuinely curious.
Oh come the hell on. I thought you'd present a more challenging argument. You mentioned you were intelligent quite numerous times.;) (This was a joke)

- I said in the post above that you were right, and posters banned under 'trolling' should rather be banned under 'forum disruptions'. Anyone's arguments are welcome as long as they don't offend people. Repeatedly using the same technique to open a thread is forum disruptions as long as it offends people. It does not constitute as "offending" if it's a different well-said opinion, I'm sure the Moderator team is always able to distinguish between these terms.
- It's bullshit that this is not a chat room? I think not. Many posters here (much more than the active trolls) come in most parts of the forum to inform themselves. Even more users (who are unregistered) come here for the same thing. Do you observe the fact that there are currently 1120 active guests browsing the forum, which is 5 times the number of active users?
- I did say that sarcasm and fun are OK as long as they don't cross a line. Do you often not think about what other people think when you post something sarcastic? Have you ever given thought that the other person may see it very offensive? That is why a line must be drawn and respected by the community. You can joke around with some people and you cannot with others. We are all different people, that is why moderation has been subjective in most situations. Because the reaction of individuals is different to jokes. Also, this is why rules must say "You cannot do that" rather than "You can do that". Imposing a restriction will make people think twice before posting a joke, sarcastic comment etc. and it will also help maintain traffic to a forum. What kind of forum that allows anything to be said will attract new users? It's a mini-business, it generates profit (not for Mods obviously). Like I said, it's a company, it has a policy, it has an image to maintain. Most things in GM go unpunished, but also unnoticed. The idea is to maintain the notion that you can be punished (which also means imposing the rules), otherwise there would be sanctions on the owners themselves.
- I won't answer the P.S. This was not and will not be about you. You made a fair thread about this matter.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Oh come the hell on. I thought you'd present a more challenging argument. You mentioned you were intelligent quite numerous times.;) (This was a joke)
There's no need to say anything beyond that when you claim MTF is an 'information database'. :rolleyes:
- I said in the post above that you were right, and posters banned under 'trolling' should rather be banned under 'forum disruptions'. Anyone's arguments are welcome as long as they don't offend people. Repeatedly using the same technique to open a thread is forum disruptions as long as it offends people. It does not constitute as "offending" if it's a different well-said opinion, I'm sure the Moderator team is always able to distinguish between these terms.
Why does it have to be a different opinion? What's wrong with stressing an opinion that you feel strongly about? By the way, pfl and TDoc have posts in which they explained the reasoning behind their opinions, so obviously they're not going to repeat them in each post.
- It's bullshit that this is not a chat room? I think not. Many posters here (much more than the active trolls) come in most parts of the forum to inform themselves. Even more users (who are unregistered) come here for the same thing. Do you observe the fact that there are currently 1120 active guests browsing the forum, which is 5 times the number of active users?
No... I said it's bullshit that this is an information database. As much as you'd like it to be, it will never be one. :lol: Also, the guest count on forums is almost always inaccurate :lol:
- I did say that sarcasm and fun are OK as long as they don't cross a line. Do you often not think about what other people think when you post something sarcastic? Have you ever given thought that the other person may see it very offensive? That is why a line must be drawn and respected by the community. You can joke around with some people and you cannot with others. We are all different people, that is why moderation has been subjective in most situations. Because the reaction of individuals is different to jokes. Also, this is why rules must say "You cannot do that" rather than "You can do that". Imposing a restriction will make people think twice before posting a joke, sarcastic comment etc. and it will also help maintain traffic to a forum. What kind of forum that allows anything to be said will attract new users? It's a mini-business, it generates profit (not for Mods obviously). Like I said, it's a company, it has a policy, it has an image to maintain. Most things in GM go unpunished, but also unnoticed. The idea is to maintain the notion that you can be punished (which also means imposing the rules), otherwise there would be sanctions on the owners themselves.
This company will thrive more when you stop banning some of the most popular posters. I seriously doubt an MTF era with all the trolls banned will do very well. As much as you'd hate to admit it, trolls generate traffic. I can understand if the trolling reaches a point where it may be considered offensive, then at that point you can classify it under a different infraction like personal attack. As I've said, most trolling on here is NOT offensive no matter how you take it.
- I won't answer the P.S. This was not and will not be about you. You made a fair thread about this matter.
You made it seem like it was about me by saying, "If you feel that rules are hindering you from maliciously making fun of people, you should consider moving to facebook."
 

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Why does it have to be a different opinion? What's wrong with stressing an opinion that you feel strongly about? By the way, pfl and TDoc have posts in which they explained the reasoning behind their opinions, so obviously they're not going to repeat them in each post.

No... I said it's bullshit that this is an information database. As much as you'd like it to be, it will never be one. :lol: Also, the guest count on forums is almost always inaccurate :lol:

This company will thrive more when you stop banning some of the most popular posters. I seriously doubt an MTF era with all the trolls banned will do very well. As much as you'd hate to admit it, trolls generate traffic. I can understand if the trolling reaches a point where it may be considered offensive, then at that point you can classify it under a different infraction like personal attack. As I've said, most trolling on here is NOT offensive no matter how you take it.

You made it seem like it was about me by saying, "If you feel that rules are hindering you from maliciously making fun of people, you should consider moving to facebook."
- Disagreements are and will always be OK. They generate discussions needed for the forum to function. Disrespect though, that's a different manner. Consider yourself Djokovic. You worked your whole life, ever since being a little kid. You dreamed about being number 1 for just as much time. You fulfilled your dreams after working yourself out and training for hours upon hours each day. You won Grand Slams, so many tournaments, and only you know how much you worked for it. You did not ask for it, yet people applaud you and criticize you, both of which always come with media attention. Then, one day, you browse the internet for the hell of it and notice a forum where users go out of line, calling you Faker in each of their post, disgusting pusher, one-dimensional player without anything to back up such arguments or name-calls. It's just malice covered in fun-looking trolling. What do you do?
- You're right, it's more than an information database. The content is not one-dimensional, in the image of a sole person. It's the collection of all valuable (and trashy) information every user can provide. The way it looks is the personal responsibility of every user participating in it. The Moderation can only do so much. Right now, we're like some of those nasty neighborhoods where junk lies in the streets, but if you search enough through it you may find a tennis library or something. We need to learn about responsibility, and we need to do that by seeing the truth, not by deceiving people in childish pranks. Of course, it's all everyone's choice, but a line must stay there to not grant everyone the freedom to do anything they like.
- A company thriving more on trolls attacking tennis players? Would a company thrive on multiple lawsuits after lawsuits? Some can, but most cannot. Am I exaggerating with lawsuits? After all, I said most content goes unnoticed. You never know, why invite trouble?
- Sorry, I meant that as "If one feels that rules are hindering oneself from maliciously making fun of people, one should consider moving to facebook." It's a problem when English is not the first language, but I can correct myself if need be.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
- Disagreements are and will always be OK. They generate discussions needed for the forum to function. Disrespect though, that's a different manner. Consider yourself Djokovic. You worked your whole life, ever since being a little kid. You dreamed about being number 1 for just as much time. You fulfilled your dreams after working yourself out and training for hours upon hours each day. You won Grand Slams, so many tournaments, and only you know how much you worked for it. You did not ask for it, yet people applaud you and criticize you, both of which always come with media attention. Then, one day, you browse the internet for the hell of it and notice a forum where users go out of line, calling you Faker in each of their post, disgusting pusher, one-dimensional player without anything to back up such arguments or name-calls. It's just malice covered in fun-looking trolling. What do you do?
Easy answer to this: I doubt Djokovic gives two shits about what people on the internet have to say about him. With this logic every athlete would sue any social media website, as they ALL generate hate. Djokovic knows his life will always be much better than the lives of haters on the internet :lol: How many times has MTF been sued, by the way?
- You're right, it's more than an information database. The content is not one-dimensional, in the image of a sole person. It's the collection of all valuable (and trashy) information every user can provide. The way it looks is the personal responsibility of every user participating in it. The Moderation can only do so much. Right now, we're like some of those nasty neighborhoods where junk lies in the streets, but if you search enough through it you may find a tennis library or something. We need to learn about responsibility, and we need to do that by seeing the truth, not by deceiving people in childish pranks. Of course, it's all everyone's choice, but a line must stay there to not grant everyone the freedom to do anything they like.
MTF will NEVER, I repeat, NEVER be a very informational website. It will always be about the discussion and the community as a whole.
- A company thriving more on trolls attacking tennis players? Would a company thrive on multiple lawsuits after lawsuits? Some can, but most cannot. Am I exaggerating with lawsuits? After all, I said most content goes unnoticed. You never know, why invite trouble?
You of all people should know that MTF is viewed upon as the tennis troll capital of the forum world. I seriously doubt MTF would deal with any lawsuits about some harmless posts. :rolls: If you don't allow one post about vulturing, then you can't really allow any. So why not just allow them?
- Sorry, I meant that as "If one feels that rules are hindering oneself from maliciously making fun of people, one should consider moving to facebook." It's a problem when English is not the first language, but I can correct myself if need be.
Your English is great; Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 

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the majority of posts on MTF are trolling, how this is still a bannable offense is beyond me
 
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