[moved to #post 91]
It applies to every player in this thread, look at the numbers, everyone lost at least ~20 matches being relatively close to victory, Nadal lost 18 times for instance matches like 4-6 6-3 6-7 (Del Potro) or 6-2 6-7 3-6 (Garcia-Lopez).Robredo has saved many compromising situations, true, but how many of those have been caused by his own mental weakness?
You haven't also understood the idea of the thread. It's not about analyzing specific players competing against each other (counting all those matches, it really doesn't matter to me that Robredo is 0-11 against Roddick or Wawrinka against Nadal), it's about the mass of players and their entanglement over the 40 years. It's just about numbers and hypothetical assumption what could have happened if a particular player had had bigger or smaller technical/physical potential. I guess for example - give Furlan skills of Rios (both very similar posture) and maybe he would be the best in the world for a while, not 19 as he was in 1996. It's just theoretical assumption.and it is worth the same a comeback versus any player? what about coming back versus a man that has beaten you six times in a row? also, moments in a career are very different, some losses are meaningless, some are demolishing. You can't measure courage or determination, although I concede that your attempt has been a serious and methodical effort.
I get what you mean... and despite still not agreeing it can be called "mental thoughness ranking", I as ever enjoyed your work and learned a lot about players I didn't know. ThanksIt applies to every player in this thread, look at the numbers, everyone lost at least ~20 matches being relatively close to victory, Nadal lost 18 times for instance matches like 4-6 6-3 6-7 (Del Potro) or 6-2 6-7 3-6 (Garcia-Lopez).
You haven't also understood the idea of the thread. It's not about analyzing specific players competing against each other (counting all those matches, it really doesn't matter to me that Robredo is 0-11 against Roddick or Wawrinka against Nadal), it's about the mass of players and their entanglement over the 40 years. It's just about numbers and hypothetical assumption what could have happened if a particular player had had bigger or smaller technical/physical potential. I guess for example - give Furlan skills of Rios (both very similar posture) and maybe he would be the best in the world for a while, not 19 as he was in 1996. It's just theoretical assumption.
The stuff is confusing because every has own idea who is strong who isn't, so I suspect it's annoying when I depict the list completely different from the assumption of others, but I don't care. Almost everyone apologize for netcords, I play racquet sports often never apologizing for anything when I win a point (if I don't hurt physically my opponent); people mention break points and unforced errors - I never do this because in my opinion so called "unforced errors" are silly and "break point" stats incomplete so actually meaningless. I don't seek reflection of my own opinions in others.
My list isn't made by a person who began watching tennis last year. As I mentioned earlier: I was thinking about this thread a few years while I started to watch tennis from the tactical point of view in February 1991, I remember it was E.Sanchez-Mansdorf match in Stuttgart. It's long enough to have complex considerations about tennis.
In the end of all discussions, numbers like introduced to this thread are meaningless, what counts the most is who wins the biggest titles. The fact Renzo Furlan is higher in the list than Nadal or Federer doesn't change the fact he is actually a nobody in the history of tennis comparing to them.
I could prepare much more quicker a thread with 250 players and their achievements, but it's too obvious to waste time for something like this especially that this knowledge is broadly accessible on the official ATP site & Wikipedia. Everyone who knows which tournaments are the most important is able to make such a comparison. Perhaps I'll write a book about 250 best players of the Open era in the 50th anniversary (2018) and certainly numbers of the matrix won't be included there, also the list will differ (I guess 20-30 players)
Perhaps better terminology could be applied, but it's not a problem of this thread - it's rather a general problem of modernity, the rate of change is much more faster than the linguistic changes. Thus I'm follower of combining words with pictures & music - this 3-piece mixture allows to better convey what we mean.I get what you mean... and despite still not agreeing it can be called "mental toughness ranking", I as ever enjoyed your work and learned a lot about players I didn't know. Thanks
I get the 'concept' and I understand Voo has just compiled stats regarding very close matches and sets and the ratio in which a player wins in these close momentsMountaindewslave is not getting it I think. The point is trying to take tennis skill and fitness out of the equation and look at simply mental strength as its own parameter. The point being, players with better mental strenght may be able to gut out wins in situations where they are the worse player, looking at skill and the match alone. Very interesting, I think.
6-2 2-6 6-4 Dick Crealy [AUS] 1-6 7-6 7-5 Jan Lundquist [SWE] 3-6 6-4 8-6 Ramiro Benavides [BOL] 6-4 6-8 6-4 Hans Kary [AUT] 6-4 3-6 8-6 Steve Faulk [USA] 5-7 6-2 6-4 Bernard Mitton [RSA] 6-3 6-7 6-3 Dick Crealy [AUS] 7-6 5-7 7-5 Steve Krulevitz [USA] 5-7 6-4 6-1 Onny Parun [NZL] 6-3 5-7 6-1 Marco Consolini [ITA] 4-6 6-1 10-8 Vladimir Zednik [CZE] 5-7 7-5 6-0 Bob Carmichael [AUS] 1-6 6-3 8-6 Antonio Munoz [ESP] 1-6 6-4 6-2 Charlie Pasarell [USA] 7-6 4-6 6-4 John Alexander [AUS] 6-3 8-9 6-4 Tony Roche [AUS] 4-6 6-2 7-5 Jiri Hrebec [CZE] 4-6 6-3 7-5 Roger Taylor [GBR] 4-6 6-3 6-3 Ion Tiriac [ROU] 0-6 6-3 6-2 Jun Kuki [JPN] 6-2 0-6 7-5 Mike Collins [GBR] 4-6 6-3 6-2 Patrice Dominguez [FRA] 7-5 5-7 6-4 Modesto Vazquez [ESP]
Magnus Larsson [SWE] 6-7 6-3 6-1 3-6 9-7 Jakob Hlasek [SUI] 3-6 6-0 4-6 7-6 9-7 Fabrice Santoro [FRA] 6-7 6-7 6-4 6-4 8-6 Chris Bailey [GBR] 5-7 7-6 6-7 6-4 9-7 Thomas Muster [AUT] 6-7 7-5 6-7 6-2 7-5 Richard Krajicek [NED] 6-3 6-4 5-7 6-7 15-13 Cedric Pioline [FRA] 6-4 2-6 7-5 1-6 9-7 Patrick Rafter [AUS] 6-3 3-6 6-3 2-6 9-7
Jan Kodes [CZE] 4-6 7-6 6-4 Robert Vant Hof [USA] 3-6 7-6 6-2 Ivan Lendl [USA] 2-6 7-6 6-4 Anders Jarryd [SWE] 3-6 7-6 6-1 Pablo Arraya [PER] 4-6 7-6 6-4 Tom Gullikson [USA] 5-7 7-6 6-1 John Sadri [USA] 4-6 7-6 6-2 Guy Forget [FRA] 4-6 7-6 6-1 John Fitzgerald [AUS] 3-6 7-6 6-4 Libor Pimek [BEL] 3-6 7-5 6-4 Vincent Van Patten [USA]6-7 7-6 6-2 Jordi Arrese [ESP] 4-6 7-6 6-0 Fernando Luna [ESP] 6-7 7-6 6-2 Jeremy Bates [GBR] 4-6 7-6 6-1 Eduardo Bengoechea [ARG]1-6 7-6 6-2 Patrick Baur [GER] 4-6 7-6 6-1 Derrick Rostagno [USA] 1-6 7-5 6-3 Diego Perez [URU] 3-6 7-6 6-0 Goran Prpic [CRO] 4-6 7-6 6-4
R.Reneberg & K.Carlsen 7-13 (.35) Gaudio, Gaston 6-15 (.28) Rostagno, Derrick 4-11 (.26) Karlovic, Ivo 4-13 (.23) Blake, James 4-15 (.21)
Goellner, Mark-Kevin 67-95 (.41) Agenor, Ronald 69-115 (.38) Volandri, Filippo 35-57 (.38) Squillari, Franco 37-61 (.37) Haase, Robin 36-63 (.36)
Ancic, Mario 7-15 (.31) Hanescu, Victor 7-17 (.29) Mantilla, Felix 8-20 (.28) Verdasco, Fernando 6-15 (.28) Tipsarevic, Janko 3-12 (.20)
Ginepri, Robby 9-18 (.33) Rosset, Marc 14-30 (.31) Mayotte, Tim 11-24 (.31) P.Fleming & A.Pavel 9-21 (.30) Malisse, Xavier 6-21 (.22)
IMO, break points may be taken into serious consideration only in the perspective in games won/lost.3) Difference between percentage of break points saved and percentage of service points won
4) Difference between percentage of break points converted and percentage of return points won
36 - Lendl, Ivan 33 - Sampras, Pete 32 - Hewitt, Lleyton & Becker, Boris 30 - Lapentti, Nicolas 29 - Noah, Yannick & Bjorkman, Jonas & Vilas, Guillermo [...] 22 - Lendl, Ivan & Agassi, Andre 21 - Alexander, John & Stepanek, Radek & Rochus, Olivier 20 - Vilas, Guillermo & Hlasek, Jakob & Clement, Arnaud & Hewitt, Lleyton & Haas, Tommy
341 - Federer, Roger 328 - Sampras, Pete 304 - Roddick, Andy 276 - Ivanisevic, Goran 256 - Rusedski, Greg [...] 209 - Ljubicic, Ivan 207 - Ivanisevic, Goran 200 - Rusedski, Greg 194 - Sampras, Pete 185 - Roddick, Andy
34 - Karlovic, Ivo 33 - Moya, Carlos 33 - Ljubicic, Ivan 29 - Sampras, Pete 28 - Isner, John [...] 31 - Safin, Marat 25 - Karlovic, Ivo 24 - Rosset, Marc 23 - Andreev, Igor 22 - Ljubicic, Ivan
39 - Alexander, John 38 - Gomez, Andres 35 - Sampras, Pete 34 - Connors, Jimmy 33 - Rusedski, Greg [...] 30 - Rosset, Marc 28 - Rusedski, Greg & Fibak, Wojtek 27 - Stockton, Dick 26 - Tanner, Roscoe & Woodforde, Mark 25 - Henman, Tim & Hrbaty, Dominik & Fromberg, Richard