Mens Tennis Forums banner

1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Strong win from Denis. He's maturing even if he still blows far too many points by going for difficult winners instead of keeping the ball in play. He was distracted by a bad call in the 1st set and dropped his level, but regained his composure in the 2nd and victory was nid in the 3rd.

He still tries to play HC tennis and even if he does have the firepower he really needs to adapt his game a bit more to clay.

Humbert has a very good game and is also 20 (although he will turn 21 this year), so it was psychologically an important win for Denis. The match probably doesn't deserve a thread, but as there's not much else going on...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
Strong win from Denis. He's maturing even if he still blows far too many points by going for difficult winners instead of keeping the ball in play. He was distracted by a bad call in the 1st set and dropped his level, but regained his composure in the 2nd and victory was nid in the 3rd.

He still tries to play HC tennis and even if he does have the firepower he really needs to adapt his game a bit more to clay.

Humbert has a very good game and is also 20 (although he will turn 21 this year), so it was psychologically an important win for Denis. The match probably doesn't deserve a thread, but as there's not much else going on...
Very good analysis. Bang on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,352 Posts
Wasn't looking good for a while but Denis got things figured out and finished off the match well. Hopefully he can gain some confidence on the clay going into next week.
 

·
justice for all
Joined
·
13,124 Posts
Yeah, good he bagged a win. From Denis perspective the sooner this clay season is over the better, really.

This clown Paire next - beatable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Discussion Starter #7

Why was Shapo so angry at Ramos? And to say this to Ramos of all people lol
Well it was a blatantly bad call! Denis did stop playing and it was plain to see to anyone watching. In the heat of the moment that's how you react. I think Denis was right to challenge, but as everyone knows a made call by an umpire will never be retracted by a supervisor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,281 Posts
Well it was a blatantly bad call! Denis did stop playing and it was plain to see to anyone watching. In the heat of the moment that's how you react. I think Denis was right to challenge, but as everyone knows a made call by an umpire will never be retracted by a supervisor.
Yeah I’m asking because I can’t find a video of the incident so I wanna know what happened
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Yeah I’m asking because I can’t find a video of the incident so I wanna know what happened
Ah. Sorry! Humbert served, Denis shanked the rtrn sending the ball way up in the air. The serve looked long but no call and before Denis's return had dropped, he stopped playing and walked up to the mark to circle it. He didn't raise his arm but he had stopped playing, that was obvious. Then his shanked return drops and Humbert taps it in - Denis is standing still. Humbert is awarded the point. Denis flatly refuses to play on and calls for the supervisor. Denis was angry but he was reasonable and he was right. I think the umpire knew it too, but they just can't back down from a made call. In the end the point was replayed.
Edit: I was wrong. Seeing it again, the point wasn't replayed! And seeing it again makes it look even worse than I remembered it. Ramos really screwed up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,632 Posts
That was a really bad call, but didn't deserve the implosion that followed. Umpiring on clay is traditionally terrible for everyone involved. Have to accept this fact and move on.
Quite childish response by Shapo. Especially in front of such partisan crowd. Could've easily cost him - he was within two points of losing. Saved himself with an ace and a couple close FH's. So he got a little lucky. Though after that he fought back and showed good composure. Mostly... Still, was serving for the second set and broke himself by DF'ing. Nonetheless, a win is a win is a win. And a win on clay is straight out a victory.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
That was a really bad call, but didn't deserve the implosion that followed. Umpiring on clay is traditionally terrible for everyone involved. Have to accept this fact and move on.
Quite childish response by Shapo. Especially in front of such partisan crowd. Could've easily cost him - he was within two points of losing. Saved himself with an ace and a couple close FH's. So he got a little lucky. Though after that he fought back and showed good composure. Mostly... Still, was serving for the second set and broke himself by DF'ing. Nonetheless, a win is a win is a win. And a win on clay is straight out a victory.
Not a childish response at all. I'm well aware of the difficulty of judging close calls on clay (and how wrong these calls can be). But this had nothing to do with a bad line call. It was bad umpiring. "I have made my decision" was Ramos first response when Denis flipped out (and Ramos knew he was in the wrong).
And from that point on the umpire cannot back down.
This was way beyond a mistake. Partisan crowd? Like that should matter! And there was virtually no booing from the crowd who saw it with their own eyes. Have you seen the whole thing?

I get what you're saying - how futile it is to challenge the umpire when you know he will win. But I disagree. This was cheating to help Humbert, and therefore Ramos is a corrupt umpire. I think corrupt umpires should be challenged.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,632 Posts
Not a childish response at all. I'm well aware of the difficulty of judging close calls on clay (and how wrong these calls can be). But this had nothing to do with a bad line call. It was bad umpiring. "I have made my decision" was Ramos first response when Denis flipped out (and Ramos knew he was in the wrong).
And from that point on the umpire cannot back down.
This was way beyond a mistake. Partisan crowd? Like that should matter! And there was virtually no booing from the crowd who saw it with their own eyes. Have you seen the whole thing?

I get what you're saying - how futile it is to challenge the umpire when you know he will win. But I disagree. This was cheating to help Humbert, and therefore Ramos is a corrupt umpire. I think corrupt umpires should be challenged.
Maybe (probably) I wasn't clear enough. I am not holding it against Shapo. I guess I am being Captain Obvious. :p I understand why he flipped out - he was right to do so and summoning the supervisor was the correct call. Mistakes like this should not be simply swept under the rug. They must be pointed out, even if that wouldn't change the outcome.
What I meant was he shouldn't have let unfortunate circumstances affect his mood and his game so much. Questionable and plain wrong decisions are made by umpires all the time, especially on clay, where they have more discretion. That's the sad reality. Give Ramos a piece of your mind and move on. The crowd was pushing its home boy even harder after the incident. The implosion just gave his opponent free energy and almost cost him the match he had no business losing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
The problem is two-fold.

First, enough with no system to call the lines on clay. Technology is available and if they need to refine it then do so. These tournaments make millions of dollars and they certainly have the funds. If not, find them.

Second, yes, Denis is very emotional on court and he needs to reign that in. Most of the time he does, but I agree w/ him here. This is unprofessional line-calling and he's had a lot of bad calls during this clay season. However, Monsi makes a good point. These kinds of reactions can cost him matches. You don't want that to start happening, because it can become a pattern. Nevertheless, I've never seen him react like this on any other surface where Hawkeye is available. This is thoroughly unprofessional for clay court tournaments to go on like this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
336 Posts
Ah. Sorry! Humbert served, Denis shanked the rtrn sending the ball way up in the air. The serve looked long but no call and before Denis's return had dropped, he stopped playing and walked up to the mark to circle it. He didn't raise his arm but he had stopped playing, that was obvious. Then his shanked return drops and Humbert taps it in - Denis is standing still. Humbert is awarded the point. Denis flatly refuses to play on and calls for the supervisor. Denis was angry but he was reasonable and he was right. I think the umpire knew it too, but they just can't back down from a made call. In the end the point was replayed.
Edit: I was wrong. Seeing it again, the point wasn't replayed! And seeing it again makes it look even worse than I remembered it. Ramos really screwed up.
But the REAL question is, was the serve IN or OUT? Cuz if it was out, it should have 100% been either a 2nd serve or a DF.

BUT, if the serve was actually IN, then it's Denis' own fault for stopping play because he "thought" it was out. He challenged the fact that there was no "out" call, stopped play, and then what? If he was actaully wrong and the ball was indeed in, then it's his own fault for stopping play and he should lose the point.

This is exactly the same thing when players challenge a close call (usually on the baseline) when they think the ball was out and no call was made; but then when the hawkeye shows the mark, it turns out it was actually in, which means the player automatically loses the point for being wrong.

So assuming the serve was good, the only way the point could have been replayed was if there was an "out" call by either the linesperson the umpire as Denis was about to hit the ball, which would have distracted him and potentially "caused" the shank, but that clearly wasn't the case here. So I'm not sure what he's complaining about here, he should stop blaming others and take more responsibility for his actions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,632 Posts
Why didn't he challenge? Just say "challenge", or raise his racket, simple enough.
But the REAL question is, was the serve IN or OUT? Cuz if it was out, it should have 100% been either a 2nd serve or a DF.

BUT, if the serve was actually IN, then it's Denis' own fault for stopping play because he "thought" it was out. He challenged the fact that there was no "out" call, stopped play, and then what? If he was actaully wrong and the ball was indeed in, then it's his own fault for stopping play and he should lose the point.

This is exactly the same thing when players challenge a close call (usually on the baseline) when they think the ball was out and no call was made; but then when the hawkeye shows the mark, it turns out it was actually in, which means the player automatically loses the point for being wrong.

So assuming the serve was good, the only way the point could have been replayed was if there was an "out" call by either the linesperson the umpire as Denis was about to hit the ball, which would have distracted him and potentially "caused" the shank, but that clearly wasn't the case here. So I'm not sure what he's complaining about here, he should stop blaming others and take more responsibility for his actions.
The umpire refused to grant him a challenge, claiming he didn't stop the point. Which he clearly did. Ramos even agreed Denis walked to the mark to circle it. However, he "didn't stop the point". How these two facts can coexist in one's mind is beyond me. On HC players walk to the mark, stare at it for good 10 seconds and then challenge on a daily basis. But that's Ramos. He's as anal as they come. If in his opinion you weren't explicit enough with your challenging, you're screwed. Shapovalov isn't a seasoned tour veteran. Might not know him so well, might not have experienced many similar situations yet. Will have to learn to deal with them better, as there are many more to come in the future.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,514 Posts
The umpire refused to grant him a challenge, claiming he didn't stop the point. Which he clearly did. Ramos even agreed Denis walked to the mark to circle it. However, he "didn't stop the point". How these two facts can coexist in one's mind is beyond me. On HC players walk to the mark, stare at it for good 10 seconds and then challenge on a daily basis. But that's Ramos. He's as anal as they come. If in his opinion you weren't explicit enough with your challenging, you're screwed. Shapovalov isn't a seasoned tour veteran. Might not know him so well, might not have experienced many similar situations yet. Will have to learn to deal with them better, as there are many more to come in the future.
Ramos is no newbie. He knows his stuff. Stop a point means much more than stop moving around.

How did Denis stop the point? He didn't. He stopped moving around, probably because he got a cramp, or shit his pant. Who knows? Unless he make a clear gesture to the umpire, and to his opponent, that he would stop playing the point and yield that point if the challenge goes against him, he did not stop a point.

Your example of people walking up to check the mark before challenge happen when the questionable call ends a point. So a player is allowed some time for that.
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top