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Discussion Starter #1
Young guns on the rise, beating every #100 opponent left and right, the future is here.
Wouldn't be surprised if they all made the Top 10 in less than 5 years.

Bordeaux: Kokk vs De Bakker (#158)
Heilbronn: Zverev vs Pella (#131)
Seoul: Chung vs Soeda (#86)

One can argue that they've reached a point where they shouldn't play challengers anymore. But Kokk's flight to Rome was cancelled, Zverev needs to gain points before Hamburg, and Chung simply loves to play in Korea/Japan (I think he's never played in Europe apart from RG/Wimby juniors).
 

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These are real young guns.
 

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i dont think you can really argue that they shouldnt be playing challengers anymore. none of them are at the point yet where they can play atp events exclusively andexpect to have good results.their record in atp events this year proves that
 

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Discussion Starter #5
i dont think you can really argue that they shouldnt be playing challengers anymore. none of them are at the point yet where they can play atp events exclusively andexpect to have good results.their record in atp events this year proves that
Don't know, it's probably a general question: how do they improve as tennis players? By playing the likes of De Bakker, Pella and Soeda? Or by playing superior players?

Thing is that they need to find a compromise simply because of the ranking system, means: they need to gain both at the same time, points and experience. And that can be quite difficult.

And then you also have to take their individual situation into account, e.g. Zverev and the Hamburg situation, etc.
 

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Don't know, it's probably a general question: how do they improve as tennis players? By playing the likes of De Bakker, Pella and Soeda? Or by playing superior players?

Thing is that they need to find a compromise simply because of the ranking system, means: they need to gain both at the same time, points and experience. And that can be quite difficult.

And then you also have to take their individual situation into account, e.g. Zverev and the Hamburg situation, etc.
Sorry but your post doesn't make sense. You talk as if they could play ATPs and instead chose to play challengers. That's not the case, dude. So there's nothing to argue.

You play the challengers tour until you can play on the main ATP Tour. It is that simple. The only one with a ranking that could put him in the MD draw of ATP events is Chung but he only entered the Top100 after a Challenger win at a USA challenger. Still, abandoning the challenge tour once you get near the Top100 after 2, 3 good results isn't good because you can't schedule well. If you don't get good results you need to move back to the challengers and that can kill the confidence of a youngster.

Still, I believe he'll play the ATP tour from now on.

Also, at their age they need playing time against the pros more than anything. They need experience, need to learn how to lift trophies. Build a winning culture!

Not sure how long you follow the ATP but there is a long list of promising juniors that got destroyed by the Wild Card 'culture'. That's why you see a bunch of mentally fragile players from French, EUA. They produce a lot of good top60 players but nowadays can't produce champions because once any of them show promise they are spoiled to the max.

That's why I'm quite worried about Rublev. He got some great wins under his belt but so what? At the age of 18 he's playing 2 matches per week. Getting WCs left and right all over then world, winning one match or winning a set against a good player then losing. At this rate he'll finish the year with 25 matches under his belt and playing only matches where he doesn't have pressure at all. He's already quite fognini-like...

PS: the qualifying of 250's tournaments have basically the same level of the Main Draw of good challengers.
 

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Nice to see Coric inspiring other young lads from his generation.
 

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Sorry but your post doesn't make sense. You talk as if they could play ATPs and instead chose to play challengers. That's not the case, dude. So there's nothing to argue.

You play the challengers tour until you can play on the main ATP Tour. It is that simple. The only one with a ranking that could put him in the MD draw of ATP events is Chung but he only entered the Top100 after a Challenger win at a USA challenger. Still, abandoning the challenge tour once you get near the Top100 after 2, 3 good results isn't good because you can't schedule well. If you don't get good results you need to move back to the challengers and that can kill the confidence of a youngster.

Still, I believe he'll play the ATP tour from now on.

Also, at their age they need playing time against the pros more than anything. They need experience, need to learn how to lift trophies. Build a winning culture!

Not sure how long you follow the ATP but there is a long list of promising juniors that got destroyed by the Wild Card 'culture'. That's why you see a bunch of mentally fragile players from French, EUA. They produce a lot of good top60 players but nowadays can't produce champions because once any of them show promise they are spoiled to the max.

That's why I'm quite worried about Rublev. He got some great wins under his belt but so what? At the age of 18 he's playing 2 matches per week. Getting WCs left and right all over then world, winning one match or winning a set against a good player then losing. At this rate he'll finish the year with 25 matches under his belt and playing only matches where he doesn't have pressure at all. He's already quite fognini-like...

PS: the qualifying of 250's tournaments have basically the same level of the Main Draw of good challengers.
I agree with at least most of this. You see playing challengers is usually better for them than playing ATP qualys/MD because they get more matches, more points, more money and get more confidence, they need to have the winning feeling, the feeling and experience of winning events, so they can take it to the next level.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Sorry but your post doesn't make sense. You talk as if they could play ATPs and instead chose to play challengers. That's not the case, dude. So there's nothing to argue.
Uh, so what have they done in the last four months? :confused:
MD =/= playing qualies and actually qualify. That's what they did or were trying to do for the vast majority of 2015.

Also, at their age they need playing time against the pros more than anything. They need experience, need to learn how to lift trophies. Build a winning culture!
Well, they need to play pros. But what kind of pros? Top 200 pros? Or Top 50 pros?
That's the actual question.

Not sure how long you follow the ATP but there is a long list of promising juniors that got destroyed by the Wild Card 'culture'. That's why you see a bunch of mentally fragile players from French, EUA. They produce a lot of good top60 players but nowadays can't produce champions because once any of them show promise they are spoiled to the max.
Let's not act like these players get wild cars every single week. WCs are the exception, for the majority of the year they actually have to earn to play a tournament.
So I'd say the players you're referring to just don't/didn't have the talent.

That's why I'm quite worried about Rublev. He got some great wins under his belt but so what? At the age of 18 he's playing 2 matches per week. Getting WCs left and right all over then world, winning one match or winning a set against a good player then losing. At this rate he'll finish the year with 25 matches under his belt and playing only matches where he doesn't have pressure at all. He's already quite fognini-like...
Rublev is 17 years and 7 months old.
I think at this point we don't need to worry about anything concering Rublev. He's doing just fine

PS: the qualifying of 250's tournaments have basically the same level of the Main Draw of good challengers.
Well, that's why it's so attractive to player ATP-level tournaments. Because you don't need to be in the MD, qualifying isn't that difficult.
Then you make the first round, you win. Great success, great experience.
And then you lose in the second round. Oh, doesn't matter, because you actually progressed as a player.
Or didn't you?
Shouldn't you have played a challenger the same week and made the semis?

-> That's the dilemma. And that's exactly my point.
 

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Here's how I see it:
Anyone saying Kokk should stop playing challengers hasn't looked at his schedule this year. He RARELY plays challengers and is ALWAYS trying to qualify for the big tournaments (flight issue was only reason why he was playing this one). Its really unfair to bash him for playing one challenger this week.

Zverev desperately needs to be playing challengers. His results since Hamburg last year have been really poor and he is obviously not ready for the main tour. He needs to really season himself in these challengers and some 250 qualies before trying to become a mainstay on the tour again.

While it was 100% acceptable and cool for Chung to play challengers at the beginning of the year, at this point he has completely outgrown the challenger circuit. He is simply too highly ranked not be playing 250s at least at this point and trying to qualify for the big events. At this point, playing an 80 point challenger in Asia, he is just vulturing points. A lot of people say this guy is the future, but how are we to know that given he hasn't played anybody? You gotta beat the best to be the best, and Chung is not doing that at this point.
 

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Zverev should stick to CHs and change his entire game if he wants to be a TOP10 player anytime soon because he's so far away from it currently that it's funny to talk about him as a potential slam winner.

Chung built up his ranking and he isn't really that young anymore. The best of the best already played regulary in ATP tournaments at his age. He has a nice cushion now and time to make something happen in the bigger tourneys.

Props to Kokk for trying to achieve everything on the top level but it wasn't working. Winning a CH or two will boost his ranking and make his life easier. Nothing embarrassing about that.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Nice to see Coric inspiring other young lads from his generation.
Zverev should stick to CHs and change his entire game if he wants to be a TOP10 player anytime soon because he's so far away from it currently that it's funny to talk about him as a potential slam winner.

Chung built up his ranking and he isn't really that young anymore. The best of the best already played regulary in ATP tournaments at his age. He has a nice cushion now and time to make something happen in the bigger tourneys.

Props to Kokk for trying to achieve everything on the top level but it wasn't working. Winning a CH or two will boost his ranking and make his life easier. Nothing embarrassing about that.
Dat high horse...

I like Coric. But what has he done to separate him from the rest? Beating Murray in Dubai?
Seriously, Dubai is all he's got going for him at this point, the rest isn't all that impressive.
Kokk has four Top 50 wins under his belt in 2015.
Coric two (including that obvious Murray tank).
 

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Dat high horse...

I like Coric. But what has he done to separate him from the rest? Beating Murray in Dubai?
Seriously, Dubai is all he's got going for him at this point, the rest isn't all that impressive.
Kokk has four Top 50 wins under his belt in 2015.
Coric two (including that obvious Murray tank).
Did I mention Coric?

Don't be butthurt. :lol:
 

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Zverev should stick to CHs and change his entire game if he wants to be a TOP10 player anytime soon because he's so far away from it currently that it's funny to talk about him as a potential slam winner.
Why is that funny:confused: Don't forget he is one year younger than Kokkinakis and Chung. But you're right that he has to play challengers now because he was even struggling against Top 200 Players at the beginning of the year. There is no question about it. The question Paolo raised up doesn't exist in this case. He needs a winning mentality and points to avoid the big downfall after Hamburg.
And you're right that he has to change his game. He needs to be closer to the baseline but i think it's getting better slowly. And mainly Zverev has with his service, forehand and backhand very big and dangerous strokes. Which Coric for example doesn't have.
Don't know if Zverev wins a Grand Slam someday but the Top Ten are possibly achievable. And i think Kokkinakis is the best prospect of his generation. For me he is the next big thing. His forehand is unbelieveable and his game is already very complete.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Did I mention Coric?

Don't be butthurt. :lol:
Well, you're a Coric homer. I like him, too. So we're on the same page.
It's just weird to read comments "Kokk this, Zverev that" when they're coming from a fan of a player who's basically on that exact same level.
At some point this year I was definitely thinking and posting "Man, Borna should play a couple of challengers now".
But yeah you didn't mention him... that much is true.
 

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Why is that funny:confused: Don't forget he is one year younger than Kokkinakis and Chung. But you're right that he has to play challengers now because he was even struggling against Top 200 Players at the beginning of the year. There is no question about it. The question Paolo raised up doesn't exist in this case. He needs a winning mentality and points to avoid the big downfall after Hamburg.
And you're right that he has to change his game. He needs to be closer to the baseline but i think it's getting better slowly. And mainly Zverev has with his service, forehand and backhand very big and dangerous strokes. Which Coric for example doesn't have.
Don't know if Zverev wins a Grand Slam someday but the Top Ten are possibly achievable. And i think Kokkinakis is the best prospect of his generation. For me he is the next big thing. His forehand is unbelieveable and his entire game is very good.
Zverev and Kokkinakis are pretty simular. Main difference is that Kokk knows his weaknesses and he adjusted his game to it, unlike Zverev. The other difference being Zverev's weaker mentality and ocassional loser behavior.

Since I followed Del Potro and Cilic their entire careers, I'm fairly certain in my opinion that a 196cm+ players will never, ever be a #1 in modern tennis.

Coric not having weapons is a silly statement commonly used on MTF by haters and people who don't watch his matches. It's not worth commenting.

With all said, I'm looking forwarding to seeing all the young guns progress in the next few years.
 

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Well, you're a Coric homer. I like him, too. So we're on the same page.
It's just weird to read comments "Kokk this, Zverev that" when they're coming from a fan of a player who's basically on that exact same level.
At some point this year I was definitely thinking and posting "Man, Borna should play a couple of challengers now".
But yeah you didn't mention him... that much is true.
I criticize him probably more than any other young guns except Zverev(It's just frustrating to see he's not adjusting his game to senior level tennis) . It's just that he's doing most things right atm, and everything is going really above expectation in this season. However, I'm hoping he'll push even harder (no pun intended) next season and not stagnate like some other prospects did in the past.
 
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