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Discussion Starter #1
In times in which Israel's critics are constantly smeared in North America and Europe over fake antisemitism charges, Israeli leaders are regularly seen shaking hands with far right and even neo-Nazi Western allies.

What does that tell us? (1) Israel's antisemitism card is used more and more to silence any criticism of Israel's policies and (2) Israel as a state doesn't really care about antisemitism as long as those antisemites support Israel's policies. It happens to be the case that Western racists hate Arabs and Muslims more than they hate Jews. Furthermore, they're increasingly concerned about preserving Western way of life and saving Europe from mass Muslim immigration. To that extent, they actually see Israel as an ally in the region.


Why Benjamin Netanyahu Loves the European Far-Right
Recent spats aside, Israel’s right-wing government sees the illiberal nationalist leaders of Poland and Hungary as natural allies. They share a hostility toward human rights, Enlightenment values, and the European Union.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/24/why-benjamin-netanyahu-loves-the-european-far-right-orban-kaczynski-pis-fidesz-visegrad-likud-antisemitism-hungary-poland-illiberalism/
 

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WW2, Hungarian Jews and Horthy is a bit more complicated question than presented there by Ali Abunimah. It is sufficient to read only Jewish sources about the deportations in 1944, when there were hardly any Jews left in Germany dominated Europe. They certainly know their history better than Ali. It is one of the most tragic events in history of Europe, and while Horthy can't be absolved for crimes that occurred, not only crimes against Jews, it was the German administration in Hungary who sent Hungarian Jews to death camps. If it had been Horthy's intention and wish, Hungarian Jews would have perished as soon as 1941, when he had real power unlike 1944. Horthy came from a noble family and probably privately despised Nazis and their hypnotized masses of followers. Hungarian surnames ending in "y" usually denote nobility.
 

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Of course Orban is not a neo-nazi.

It is actually not easy to define Orban politically. He is a nationalist and populist, but he is not really against EU. He would cooperate with Salvini but he "doesn't want anything to do with Marine Le Pen". He advocates the rule and will of people but is "illiberal".

In Europe, he is as peculiar politician as Hungary is a peculiar European country with a unique history. So the safest definition would be that Orban is politically being a Hungarian if that makes any sense.
 

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Title is misleading and you cannot say that about Israeli state as a whole. But it always gave me trouble thinking Israeli politicians get on much better with far-right European counterparts. If they actually visit those countries, take a walk in their streets, it will be pretty obvious to them that there are lots of folk who hates Jews there, much much more than the ones in Muslim countries tbh.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
What about the thread title? Is Orban supposed to be a neo-nazi?
It means what it says. I am not claiming Orban is a Neo Nazi, I am simply stating that Israel has no problem with actual neonazis as long as long as they're supportive of Israel..

Look up Israel's close relationship with Ukraine's neonazis, including selling them arms. Or even the Austrian colation government which includes far right parties with neonazi origins. Are those a problem for Israel? You can draw your own conclusions.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
WW2, Hungarian Jews and Horthy is a bit more complicated question than presented there by Ali Abunimah. It is sufficient to read only Jewish sources about the deportations in 1944, when there were hardly any Jews left in Germany dominated Europe. They certainly know their history better than Ali. It is one of the most tragic events in history of Europe, and while Horthy can't be absolved for crimes that occurred, not only crimes against Jews, it was the German administration in Hungary who sent Hungarian Jews to death camps. If it had been Horthy's intention and wish, Hungarian Jews would have perished as soon as 1941, when he had real power unlike 1944. Horthy came from a noble family and probably privately despised Nazis and their hypnotized masses of followers. Hungarian surnames ending in "y" usually denote nobility.
The line of public admiration from Orban to Horthy actually brought widespread criticism from local Jewish communities and associations. Israel pretty much let it pass after a brief clarification.

However, one does not need to be a clairvoyant to see that if any politican critical of Israel's policies such as Omar in the United States or Corbyn in the UK had said that, we'd still be hearing Israel's condemnation.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Title is misleading and you cannot say that about Israeli state as a whole. But it always gave me trouble thinking Israeli politicians get on much better with far-right European counterparts. If they actually visit those countries, take a walk in their streets, it will be pretty obvious to them that there are lots of folk who hates Jews there, much much more than the ones in Muslim countries tbh.
Why do you think the title is misleading?
 

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It happens to be the case that Western racists hate Arabs and Muslims more than they hate Jews. Furthermore, they're increasingly concerned about preserving Western way of life and saving Europe from mass Muslim immigration. To that extent, they actually see Israel as an ally in the region.
"Western racists" have different opinions actually.
 

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The leaders of Hungary and Poland are not "actual neonazis".

If you bother to track what actual neo-nazis think and say, most of them despise Israel. Many of them even refer to themselves as "anti-Zionists". For instance, look at Udo Voigt, a German neo-nazi who represents the NPD in the European Parliament. He takes his antisemitism to such a radical level that he recently took a trip to Beirut to meet with leaders from notoriously antisemitic Hezbollah:

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/German-leader-meets-with-Hezbollah-supports-terrorism-against-Israel-584259
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/ex-bnp-leader-nick-griffin-met-with-hezbollah-official-after-britain-proscribed-terror-group-1.481769

This delegation also included neofascist leaders from Italy (Roberto Fiore) and Britain (Nick Griffin).

Or you could look at Golden Dawn, the infamous Greek neo-nazi party, whose representatives are happy to describe Israel as the "eternal enemy" of Greece (presumably an allusion to the film Der ewige Jude):

https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/greek-parliamentarian-calls-israel-eternal-enemy-of-greece-and-orthodoxy-6-1-2016

That said, the comments above are only made with reference to parties who have managed to get people elected into parliamentary groups, either on a national or EU level. As most neo-nazis have never managed to get anyone elected, it would be an incomplete assessment to ignore the extreme, vitriolic hatred reserved for Israel by hardline nazi groups like National Action, the National Front (UK), Renouveau français, the London Forum, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The leaders of Hungary and Poland are not "actual neonazis".

If you bother to track what actual neo-nazis think and say, most of them despise Israel. Many of them even refer to themselves as "anti-Zionists". For instance, look at Udo Voigt, a German neo-nazi who represents the NPD in the European Parliament. He takes his antisemitism to such a radical level that he recently took a trip to Beirut to meet with leaders from notoriously antisemitic Hezbollah:

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/German-leader-meets-with-Hezbollah-supports-terrorism-against-Israel-584259
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/ex-bnp-leader-nick-griffin-met-with-hezbollah-official-after-britain-proscribed-terror-group-1.481769

This delegation also included neofascist leaders from Italy (Roberto Fiore) and Britain (Nick Griffin).

Or you could look at Golden Dawn, the infamous Greek neo-nazi party, whose representatives are happy to describe Israel as the "eternal enemy" of Greece (presumably an allusion to the film Der ewige Jude):

https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/greek-parliamentarian-calls-israel-eternal-enemy-of-greece-and-orthodoxy-6-1-2016
Uh? I never said they were, nor did I even refer to all of the people you mentioned afterwards.


That said, the comments above are only made with reference to parties who have managed to get people elected into parliamentary groups, either on a national or EU level. As most neo-nazis have never managed to get anyone elected, it would be an incomplete assessment to ignore the extreme, vitriolic hatred reserved for Israel by hardline nazi groups like National Action, the National Front (UK), Renouveau français, the London Forum, etc.
Look how the Austrian coalition government was formed or how Ukraine's (which is still part of Europe) neonazis are supported by Israel.
 

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You referred to "actual neonazis" in the title, then claimed "Israeli leaders are regularly seen shaking hands with far right and even neo-Nazi Western allies". As evidence for this claim, you posted a photograph of Yair Netanyahu (who is not an Israeli leader) shaking hands with Viktor Orbán.

As soon as you were rightly called out for inaccurately calling Orbán a "neonazi", you backtracked, saying "I never said they were".

Either change the thread title or stop being disingenuous.

There are plenty of nationalists in Europe who are pro-Israel. Orbán is one of them, as are Geert Wilders and Matteo Salvini. We can talk about them if you want, this is the wrong thread for it. YOU are the one who chose to make this a topic about neo-nazis, which is why I brought people like Roberto Fiore, Udo Voigt and Nick Griffin into the discussion. Unlike Orbán and Salvini, those guys are neo-nazis, and they have very strong opinions about Israel. Namely, they despise Israel with a passion, and they blame all of the world's ills on Jews and Zionism. Their intense hatred of Israel is why they sent a delegation to Beirut to express their solidarity with Hezbollah and its anti-Zionist crusade. It appears to be Hezbollah's leaders, not Israel's, who are shaking hands with Europe's nazis. Likewise, it is the Islamic Republic of Iran that hosts Holocaust denial conferences and invites nazis like David Duke and Michele Renouf to speak.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
You referred to "actual neonazis" in the title, then claimed "Israeli leaders are regularly seen shaking hands with far right and even neo-Nazi Western allies". As evidence for this claim, you posted a photograph of Yair Netanyahu (who is not an Israeli leader) shaking hands with Viktor Orbán.
Yes, and I consider him to be a far-right politican, which is the group I included him to belong to.
As soon as you were rightly called out for inaccurately calling Orbán a "neonazi", you backtracked, saying "I never said they were".
Because I never did! In the paragraph you quoted I literally said "Israeli leaders are regularly seen shaking hands with far right and even neo-Nazi Western allies"

You're making stuff up without even caring to read the stuff you quote, mate.
 

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Yes, and I consider him to be a far-right politican, which is the group I included him to belong to.

Because I never did! In the paragraph you quoted I literally said "Israeli leaders are regularly seen shaking hands with far right and even neo-Nazi Western allies"

You're making stuff up without even caring to read the stuff you quote, mate.
Well, post a picture of an Israeli leader (or just "Israel", to be true to your title) shaking hands with an actual neo-Nazi Western ally then, because the one you actually posted is irrelevant to the thread title (no actual neo-Nazi, no Israeli leader in sight.

Seems it is you making things up.
 
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