Mens Tennis Forums banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,753 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
There has been a lot of talk about prize money distribution and increasing the livelihood and income of those ranked like 1000 - 100 ish.

There are a few inherent problems with this.

1) The challenger and future level tournaments barely have an attendance of what, max 100 people? Maybe three people in the stands sometimes... They probably paid 20 dollars to get that front row bench seat. Maybe the tournament is sponsored by the local stringing club in the area or the local retired tennis club. People don't travel across the globe to watch a challenger or watch the 200-500 ranked guys Duke it out for their 1,000 dollar winnings.

Atp and ITF fronts the money to increase prize money? Part of the reason Nadal wins a 4,000,000 dollar US Open check is because there are millions watching and there are 20,000 in attendance at the stadium itself.

2) part two is just players getting better... they have chosen a career in tennis instead of being a carpenter, construction worker, office worker, manager , cook, etc.

Players can make a decent living if they can get to the stage where they are making 250s 500s or R1 , R2 of Masters 1000s , same for slams.

Of course there is a certain level of money you need , but logically if you win more , then the higher your ranking will be and the more money you receive. They say the match is on your racquet....

Do you think there is any merit to this argument or do you think its more complicated then this and that there needs to be a union , rights and generally more evenly distributed prize money on men's tour?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fedjokodal

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,781 Posts
There are a couple of different questions here.

1. Are the tennis player (say 1-1000) better than players in the past?

2. Is the distribution of talent now similar to the distribution of talent previously?

3. What should this mean for compensation for tennis players?

I don't think that if 1 were true that would have any effect on tennis players compensation. A player's earnings should be based on their relative performance today. Even if 1000 has improved substantially over time, that wouldn't be an argument for a greater amount of pay.

WRT to a union, even if the distribution were different, ie, much more level, I don't see that as a justification for a union. Again, there has to be incentives, and with the curve being what it is wrt to compensation really incentivizes players to 'climb the mountain' so to speak. While a union could try to disperse prize money out more evenly, I'm not sure what that has to do with the distribution of talent. Or even how you would evaluate that question.
 

·
Your visions will happen
Joined
·
49,958 Posts
It just depends on how strong of a sport you want. If you raise prize money, more players can make a living. If more can make a living, better athletes won't leave tennis, leading to a better product.

Now of course the question of where the money comes from. My new mission is to televise and interview the lower ranks of the game as I transition to a Jack Kramer promoter role. Bring more coverage, more sponsorship, have a more fun vibe around these dead events, and really grow the lower parts of the game
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,614 Posts
There clearly is a difference between now and 20 years ago. Nowadays, at least all those players who regularly qualify for slams can make a reasonable living, while this was not necessarily the case before. For example, the prize money for a first round exit at the US Open in 2000 was 10'000 USD. Which means, you had to be either very successful, have good sponsors, or be wealthy otherwise to afford being a professional tennis player. In 2019 it was 58'000 USD, and similar for the other slams, which means you can live as a professional if you can participate in all grand slams. The result is, as Johnny Groove mentioned, that more players remain in professional tennis even if they are not able to reach the absolute top. As a consequence, there are more professional players in total, and especially more professional players at advanced age, who otherwise would have at some point called it a day and left tennis for something else. One disadvantage might be that this makes it more difficult for younger players to get into the tour and qualify for slams.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
811 Posts
In his recent interview Stakhovsky said top players (he was referring to Top 50 or Top 100) became much more professional in what they do than they were 15-16 years ago when he was just beginning to play on the tour. He didn't necessarily mean purely tennis skills but them being better, more professional athletes. Which, in turn, allows them to stay competitive at this level for much longer and earn more.
But one also needs to take into account the on-court but out-of-the-tour earnings of players. German and French interclubs are a valuable source of income for a lot of guys. They don't like to talk about it but they do earn money there.
Plus, ATP pension fund increased 6-fold in the last ten years. That's also part of equation that gets overlooked when there's a talk about money distribution in tennis. For example, Stakhovsky said he will be entitled to receiving $3-4K a month after her turns 50.

As for prize money at Challengers and ITF World Tour... look, a lot of ATP 250s don't break even. And with most Challengers being played without spectators, I just don't know how you could justify increasing prize money there, I mean, increasing it significantly so that it would make a difference for 200+/300+ ranked guys. There are some well attended Challengers (for example, last year's Bordeaux had 30,000 fans) but they are exceptions. Now, you could argue ATP does poor job promoting those events — but that's the whole different question. Spectators first, prize money second, not the other way round.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,753 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
In his recent interview Stakhovsky said top players (he was referring to Top 50 or Top 100) became much more professional in what they do than they were 15-16 years ago when he was just beginning to play on the tour. He didn't necessarily mean purely tennis skills but them being better, more professional athletes. Which, in turn, allows them to stay competitive at this level for much longer and earn more.
But one also needs to take into account the on-court but out-of-the-tour earnings of players. German and French interclubs are a valuable source of income for a lot of guys. They don't like to talk about it but they do earn money there.
Plus, ATP pension fund increased 6-fold in the last ten years. That's also part of equation that gets overlooked when there's a talk about money distribution in tennis. For example, Stakhovsky said he will be entitled to receiving $3-4K a month after her turns 50.

As for prize money at Challengers and ITF World Tour... look, a lot of ATP 250s don't break even. And with most Challengers being played without spectators, I just don't know how you could justify increasing prize money there, I mean, increasing it significantly so that it would make a difference for 200+/300+ ranked guys. There are some well attended Challengers (for example, last year's Bordeaux had 30,000 fans) but they are exceptions. Now, you could argue ATP does poor job promoting those events — but that's the whole different question. Spectators first, prize money second, not the other way round.
Thats really good money!

See my only thing is that millions of people love tennis and at it competitively and for fun.

But I think for many people they realized they aren't good enough to make it professionally. For example, maybe if I was put into an academy and trained every day I could make it at the futures level... but I know for certain I could never make it at the pro level. I have an inner voice and self awareness that knew better than try to make it as a tennis player.

Does it ever come to that point for the "on the fringe guys"? Maybe could make more money as a tennis coach at a local club, where there is health benefits, a retirement, paid leave, etc.

But is it passion? I love playing the game, to the point to where if I could play every day , I would. But I'm not going to be slugging it out to try and make my 1000 dollar SF futures win....

@Johnny Groove might be able to enlighten us. Can passion take over logic?

One part of your brain is saying , I can do it, I can win big, I don't care about my shoulder pains, I don't care if I lose in the futures qualifiers its going to happen....

The other is screaming at you to stop and just settle down and forget about the passion?
 

·
Your visions will happen
Joined
·
49,958 Posts
Thats really good money!

See my only thing is that millions of people love tennis and at it competitively and for fun.

But I think for many people they realized they aren't good enough to make it professionally. For example, maybe if I was put into an academy and trained every day I could make it at the futures level... but I know for certain I could never make it at the pro level. I have an inner voice and self awareness that knew better than try to make it as a tennis player.

Does it ever come to that point for the "on the fringe guys"? Maybe could make more money as a tennis coach at a local club, where there is health benefits, a retirement, paid leave, etc.

But is it passion? I love playing the game, to the point to where if I could play every day , I would. But I'm not going to be slugging it out to try and make my 1000 dollar SF futures win....

@Johnny Groove might be able to enlighten us. Can passion take over logic?

One part of your brain is saying , I can do it, I can win big, I don't care about my shoulder pains, I don't care if I lose in the futures qualifiers its going to happen....

The other is screaming at you to stop and just settle down and forget about the passion?
Well for me, I played futures and coached in a club as well. Coaching sucks unless you are coaching high level players. Rec players annoy and bore the fuck out of me because they never improve cause they don't have the discipline for it. I have no time or patience for players without insane work ethics like myself. If you suck, that's fine, just show me some work ethic and desire to improve, I'll still work with you. No work ethic? I'd rather work in my restaurant making $42k/year. Kevin King from USA ended 2019 #298 in the world, and only made $37k in total, singles and doubles.

I make more as a server in a restaurant than a guy inside the top 300 in the world. That is just plain facts.

Also, the restaurant does not destroy my arm or any other part of my body like tennis does. Nor do I even have to work 40 hrs a week, usually 32-36 hrs a week.

Passion takes over logic so long as you are young and relatively healthy. Soon as the injuries pile up and the debt piles up and you get your girlfriend pregnant (not me yet), logic takes over.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,753 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Well for me, I played futures and coached in a club as well. Coaching sucks unless you are coaching high level players. Rec players annoy and bore the fuck out of me because they never improve cause they don't have the discipline for it. I have no time or patience for players without insane work ethics like myself. If you suck, that's fine, just show me some work ethic and desire to improve, I'll still work with you. No work ethic? I'd rather work in my restaurant making $42k/year. Kevin King from USA ended 2019 #298 in the world, and only made $37k in total, singles and doubles.

I make more as a server in a restaurant than a guy inside the top 300 in the world. That is just plain facts.

Also, the restaurant does not destroy my arm or any other part of my body like tennis does. Nor do I even have to work 40 hrs a week, usually 32-36 hrs a week.

Passion takes over logic so long as you are young and relatively healthy. Soon as the injuries pile up and the debt piles up and you get your girlfriend pregnant (not me yet), logic takes over.
Groove you could have taken me to the top. I'm a super hard worker. Only problem is you would have to help out the serve.
 

·
Your visions will happen
Joined
·
49,958 Posts
Groove you could have taken me to the top. I'm a super hard worker. Only problem is you would have to help out the serve.
Serve is easy technique wise once you get the timing of the axial rotation of the arm right

As for the wrist, just twist and snap, baby. Twist and snap
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,753 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Honestly this is a fair argument
Yeah thats my thought.

I think a great example of someone who was very successful and put in 200 percent was David Ferrer.

All the very best, mostly had a great upbringing and or financial support from their parents.

But did Ferrer make it to where he was with 30 million in the bank from wanting to get R1 of a 250? Did he win title after title from wishing it would happen?

No he was out there every single second putting in all his energy and motivation, training for 4 hours at a time, hitting ball after ball, finding ways to win.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bakano

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,753 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Serve is easy technique wise once you get the timing of the axial rotation of the arm right

As for the wrist, just twist and snap, baby. Twist and snap
I mechanically can't do a kick serve , it always turns into a slice...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,527 Posts
Not sure I get the argument. Is every football player Ronaldo or Messi? SHould only few clubs exist, do people travel around the globe to see Norwegian 4. or 5. divisjon...?
 

·
Your visions will happen
Joined
·
49,958 Posts
I mechanically can't do a kick serve , it always turns into a slice...
Send me video of your serve in a PM, let me see what's going on
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,064 Posts
I don't think you phrased this sensibly?

Remember, becoming better isn't necessarily correlating with a price money increase, because, a lot of players are getting better at the moment and tour depth is deeper than ever.

There are still just as many slots per round available as before.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,064 Posts
In his recent interview Stakhovsky said top players (he was referring to Top 50 or Top 100) became much more professional in what they do than they were 15-16 years ago when he was just beginning to play on the tour. He didn't necessarily mean purely tennis skills but them being better, more professional athletes. Which, in turn, allows them to stay competitive at this level for much longer and earn more.
But one also needs to take into account the on-court but out-of-the-tour earnings of players. German and French interclubs are a valuable source of income for a lot of guys. They don't like to talk about it but they do earn money there.
Plus, ATP pension fund increased 6-fold in the last ten years. That's also part of equation that gets overlooked when there's a talk about money distribution in tennis. For example, Stakhovsky said he will be entitled to receiving $3-4K a month after her turns 50.

As for prize money at Challengers and ITF World Tour... look, a lot of ATP 250s don't break even. And with most Challengers being played without spectators, I just don't know how you could justify increasing prize money there, I mean, increasing it significantly so that it would make a difference for 200+/300+ ranked guys. There are some well attended Challengers (for example, last year's Bordeaux had 30,000 fans) but they are exceptions. Now, you could argue ATP does poor job promoting those events — but that's the whole different question. Spectators first, prize money second, not the other way round.
That's a great quote by Stakh.

Thanks for posting it.

I KNEW something like that must have happened, some way.

Great to have some "confirmation"
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,753 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I don't think you phrased this sensibly?

Remember, becoming better isn't necessarily correlating with a price money increase, because, a lot of players are getting better at the moment and tour depth is deeper than ever.

There are still just as many slots per round available as before.

It kind of is though, more opportunities arise the better you are and the more you win. If you are 300 in the world and get better and start winning more then you will have access to more chances at making money.

Winning is mostly in your control and abilities.

If you are stuck at 300 what can you do to get to top 100 or even top 50?

And no one yet has a response to where this magical prize money is going to come from for all the lower level tournaments?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,753 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
BTW let me just say that ATP pension is better than most public retirement benefits...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,064 Posts
It kind of is though, more opportunities arise the better you are and the more you win. If you are 300 in the world and get better and start winning more then you will have access to more chances at making money.

Winning is mostly in your control and abilities.
Oh winning is mostly in one's control? So its in the opponents control too? Or are they robots incapable of changing their level?

You just have to know you lack complete sense in your statements, which is why you mudder out words like "mostly".

Cmon dude, I eagerly await the day you make sense.

And no, you will not have more chances to make money getting better if everyone around you gets better as well, which is what everyone is capable of as much as the hypothetical person you speak of.
 

·
Your visions will happen
Joined
·
49,958 Posts
BTW let me just say that ATP pension is better than most public retirement benefits...
Yes the pension plan is very good. But in order to qualify you must have 5 YE top #125 ATP finishes. So it is not easy, and they do not just give it away

As for the other question, I am already in the process of creating a TV show about the lower levels of the game. Video, interviews, color commentary by myself. That I can build onto a Youtube channel and then partner with USTA and ATP to be able to livestream every challenger and futures match one day, maybe 10 years from now. And in so doing bring more traffic and interaction to the game, building more fans and more sponsors and higher prize money
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top