Is Rafa too passive on big points outside of RG/clay?

1272 Views 22 Replies 11 Participants Last post by total_gamer1989, Dec 7, 2014

17-6-302

Discussion Starter · Dec 6, 2014

Part of the reason why Rafa has enjoyed little success(relatively speaking) outside RG is because he tends to bring his clay game to HCs and grass which obviously doesn't work more often than it does. In 2013 he played his most attacking tennis ever on HC and he reaped rich dividends by completing the North American treble. He has shown that he can bring it when he has to(5th set RG 13 was unreal in terms of Nadal's winners) but otherwise he is more prepared to wait for the opponent's error rather than forcing the issue.

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azure

· #2 · Dec 6, 2014

You probably shouldn't make the thread question and the poll question completely different, it can cause confusion and lead to inaccurate polls.

But yes, I agree for the most part. He could do with being more aggressive at times.

17-6-302

Discussion Starter · #3 · Dec 6, 2014

azure said:
You probably shouldn't make the thread question and the poll question completely different, it can cause confusion and lead to inaccurate polls.

But yes, I agree for the most part. He could do with being more aggressive at times.

I agree but in this case, it's pretty much the same. If you think he's too passive then it's a yes for if you think he should be more aggressive.

RedHotRafa49

· #4 · Dec 6, 2014

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

14 slams, 5 on HC/Grass is amazing for a "pusher". I think whatever Nadal is doing, he should keep doing it the same way he always has.

BankaiKenpachi

· #5 · Dec 6, 2014

RedHotRafa49 said:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

14 slams, 5 on HC/Grass is amazing for a "pusher". I think whatever Nadal is doing, he should keep doing it the same way he always has.

Absolutely, and also waiting for opponent's error is also part of tennis. Many of those errors are forced and tards call it luck.

17-6-302

Discussion Starter · #6 · Dec 6, 2014

RedHotRafa49 said:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

14 slams, 5 on HC/Grass is amazing for a "pusher". I think whatever Nadal is doing, he should keep doing it the same way he always has.

The point is more how much more he could win being more aggressive especially outside clay. USO 2013 was pure attacking tennis from the great man. A pusher would be someone like Nole.

monfed

· #7 · Dec 6, 2014

Ralph is always passive. Hit less winners than Simon even on his beloved clay.

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blackwell

· #8 · Dec 6, 2014

Ridiculous poll.. Clown barely knows what winner is and you ask about his agressiveness on big points :lol:

Orbis

· #9 · Dec 6, 2014

17-6-302 said:
The point is more how much more he could win being more aggressive especially outside clay. USO 2013 was pure attacking tennis from the great man. A pusher would be someone like Nole.

:lol: Don't know why you keep making posts and opening threads trying to perpetuate stuff like this. Everyone knows Djokovic has always been a more aggressive player than Nadal, by any objective metric.

And yes, Nadal should simply turn on the aggression a little more and suddenly he'll start sweeping the HC slams of course. It's so simple, why couldn't anyone see it before???

blackwell

· #10 · Dec 6, 2014

17-6-302 said:
USO 2013 was pure attacking tennis from the great man. A pusher would be someone like Nole.

Yes.. I remember how dull won the third set in the final with 2 winners

blackwell

· #11 · Dec 6, 2014

Nadull's best match in his career was Wimbledon final-2007. It was probably the only match where he tried to play tennis

17-6-302

Discussion Starter · #12 · Dec 6, 2014

Orbis said:
:lol: Don't know why you keep making posts and opening threads trying to perpetuate stuff like this. Everyone knows Djokovic has always been a more aggressive player than Nadal, by any objective metric.

And yes, Nadal should simply turn on the aggression a little more and suddenly he'll start sweeping the HC slams of course. It's so simple, why couldn't anyone see it before???

As always, Novak fans getting their shirts in a bunch over the slightest bit of criticism thrown their guy's way. 2 Novak fans bad repped me yesterday because I said Djokovic's forehand is not even close to Nadal's at his best which is true and another one bad repped me for the sign :spit:

:spit:

Djokovic is only a more aggressive player when he is facing Berdych or when he decides he has lost and decides to throw the kitchen sink at it ala USO 2011. In big matches against big players on big points he is not aggressive. Show me one match like RG 2013 set 5 where Nadal was hitting winners like a madman all over the place.

And yes in case you haven't noticed he has twice the number of USOs as dear Novak and this despite missing USOs.

17-6-302

Discussion Starter · #13 · Dec 6, 2014

blackwell said:
Ridiculous poll.. Clown barely knows what winner is and you ask about his agressiveness on big points :lol:

Ask Novak about Rafa's aggression. He'll tell you what it was like when Rafa was hitting tweeners on big points.

Orbis

· #14 · Dec 6, 2014

17-6-302 said:
As always, Novak fans getting their shirts in a bunch over the slightest bit of criticism thrown their guy's way. 2 Novak fans bad repped me yesterday because I said Djokovic's forehand is not even close to Nadal's at his best which is true and another one bad repped me for the sign

Djokovic is only a more aggressive player when he is facing Berdych or when he decides he has lost and decides to throw the kitchen sink at it ala USO 2011. In big matches against big players on big points he is not aggressive. Show me one match like RG 2013 set 5 where Nadal was hitting winners like a madman all over the place.

And yes in case you haven't noticed he has twice the number of USOs as dear Novak and this despite missing USOs.

I'm not really disgruntled over anything. Saying Novak can be a bit too passive at times is a fair criticism which I would agree with. Calling him an outright pusher is just silly.

So Nadal's aggressive peak when he was hitting winners everywhere at RG still only allowed him to win the set 9-7? I counter with Djokovic blitzing Nadal with winners to take the 2nd set 6-1 at Wimbledon 2011. Frankly there are a lot of examples to choose from, Djokovic almost always hits more winners than Nadal in their matches.

Orbis

· #15 · Dec 6, 2014

17-6-302 said:
Ask Novak about Rafa's aggression. He'll tell you what it was like when Rafa was hitting tweeners on big points.

A tweener is a desperation shot hit from a maximally defensive position. Nothing to do with aggression at all...

ManofSteel

· #16 · Dec 6, 2014

Orbis said:
A tweener is a desperation shot hit from a maximally defensive position. Nothing to do with aggression at all...

Thats why aggressiveness cant be measure in the quantity of winners hit on a match... you could pretty much win a match hitting 100 winners but doesnt mean your are an aggressive player. There are a lot of players who are construction builders when It comes to hit a winner, they like to place themselves and wait for the chance after 5 or 6 shot exchanges and then hit the winner, Djokovic for example. A completly aggressive guy is that one who doesnt build anything but goes for the winner right after the return of service.

Aggressive player? Wawrinka.

Mountaindewslave

· #17 · Dec 6, 2014

Nadal is plenty aggressive when playing on HC and elsewhere but understand naturally he is not a shotmaker, he is not capable of constantly attacking the opponent or being aggressive

I can think of moments and plenty of matches on every surface where he has played aggressively on big point

ironically Nadal hardly ever is the aggressor ON CLAY so I find it strange that your thread implies that he is particularly forceful with his game there

Nadal is so successful BECAUSE he plays with high margins and grinds a good amount of the time, mixing in big shots in big moments. I 100% agree with the OP, I think if anything one could argue that maybe Nadal should try on average points stepping up more, but he already does a fantastic balance of defensive/offensive tennis in big matches and big points

Mountaindewslave

· #18 · Dec 6, 2014

17-6-302 said:
The point is more how much more he could win being more aggressive especially outside clay. USO 2013 was pure attacking tennis from the great man. A pusher would be someone like Nole.

Nadal's game is based on playing the numbers and stepping up at certain moments. He ALREADY does play plenty aggressive in big matches, but in terms of everyday matches on HC and Grass, he would lose plenty if he abandoned his high percentage game strategy

I don't think you understand Nadal's game very well or at the very least his capabilities. you cannot take a player who at their core is a counter puncher and magically make them some sort of accurate ballbasher, it's a silly concept

17-6-302

Discussion Starter · #19 · Dec 6, 2014

Orbis said:
I'm not really disgruntled over anything. Saying Novak can be a bit too passive at times is a fair criticism which I would agree with. Calling him an outright pusher is just silly.

So Nadal's aggressive peak when he was hitting winners everywhere at RG still only allowed him to win the set 9-7? I counter with Djokovic blitzing Nadal with winners to take the 2nd set 6-1 at Wimbledon 2011. Frankly there are a lot of examples to choose from, Djokovic almost always hits more winners than Nadal in their matches.

Well Novak has become slightly more aggressive under Becker, I'll give you that; but the logic here is flawed. What does playing aggressively have to do with final scoreline? By that logic I could ask you why the slam H2H is 9-3 to Nadal if Djokovic is so much more aggressive "on every objective metric" as you claim.

17-6-302

Discussion Starter · #20 · Dec 6, 2014 (Edited)

Mountaindewslave said:
Nadal's game is based on playing the numbers and stepping up at certain moments. He ALREADY does play plenty aggressive in big matches, but in terms of everyday matches on HC and Grass, he would lose plenty if he abandoned his high percentage game strategy

I don't think you understand Nadal's game very well or at the very least his capabilities. you cannot take a player who at their core is a counter puncher and magically make them some sort of accurate ballbasher, it's a silly concept

Look on clay it doesn't matter how he plays because he invariably wins. Outside of clay, the defensive tactics don't work as well. You do have to remodel your game based on surfaces. Nadal himself admitted as much saying he had to make considerable changes back in the day to win Wimbledon after 2 losses in finals. 2013 Nadal on HC was the most aggressive he has ever been and his results were : USO win, Cincinnati win(something that had eluded him) and the Masters preceding that. He looked like a man possessed and for perhaps the first time since 08-09, his opponents actually feared Rafa outside of clay. There was that look of resignation that nothing they had was going to get through Nadal. Take Novak for example- Djokovic basically tried his hardest in the final, gave up at the end and got dispatched.

I take your point that it is hard for Nadal to suddenly start playing like say, Wawrinka(and frankly, he doesn't need to) just as hard as it would be for Wawrinka to play like him. I could well be wrong but the impression that I've always got from watching Nadal off Chatrier has been that he's more content to play the waiting game rather than to take the bull by the horns so to speak(with the exception of 2013). I can only think of a handful of matches where he played very attacking tennis on HC - AO 09, Wimbledon 07 and possibly Wimbledon 08. My point is not that Nadal is a pusher or a mug outside clay but that he could have more USO 2013s if he decided to be a little more aggressive on HC. AO 2012 is a prime example - Djokovic was great that day but he didn't exactly blow Nadal off court. He was content in pushing and Nadal didn't particularly try to blitz him either.

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