Mens Tennis Forums banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
722 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
In these trying times there is not much to watch on television. However currently on ESPN2 the 2009 AO final is airing (following the 2008 Wimbledon final). We all know Federer was the better player in this match and several other matches, but alas he came up short in this match and on several other occasions where one can easily argue he should have won. He has let enough matches slip away where it arguably has cost him his GOAT status and his records are threatened (although he is being assisted now by the virus crisis). For such an outstanding champion who has come up so clutch on more than one occasion, why has Federer choked away so many opportunities? And is he indeed the greatest choker ever to grace the sport?
 

·
Administrator | Chaos Theory
Joined
·
53,949 Posts
Flawless, ballerina, maestro, masterclass, champion, legend, god - some of the many descriptions people assign to Federer. I can definitely say Federer is very good at making it look easy at times, often leaving opponents stranded in his wake.

Federer is one of the best frontrunners in the sport. When he takes a lead, it's hard to stop him from cementing it and he can roll through service games in a jiffy. This capacity is also his undoing. There will always be some moments when you don't quite get things going and can't always rely on quick get away cards but he persists with the same strategies anyway. They work most of the time but against very steady and high quality players, this can backfire. Federer is perhaps one of the most stubborn players, who while versatile sometimes is a little too hasty to pull the trigger on a point. Sometimes, he does sacrifice control for style/flair. This is what hurt him at Wimbledon particularly when serving for the match. He got a few nice first serves, then they deserted him. But on top of that, he underestimated the court geometry. Federer is very acute at the net but he also often plays the net from poor positions, or with mediocre approach shots. At other times he plays the FH from the BH corner too often, exposing too much gap. Psyching the opponent is one thing, but the execution doesn't always go with it. The risks if they pay off are handsome, but also gets him into jams.

I've seen more blatant meltdowns in the sport but relative to caliber of player and the stage of action/stakes involved, Federer will be one highly named among those who let opportunities slip.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,285 Posts
Federer certainly could (should) have won a few important matches that he lost, especially against Djokovic. But if he was anything close to a GOAT choker, he would never have come even close to winning 20 slams. And he also won many tight matches, most notably the Wimbledon finals in 2007 and 2009, the Australian Open final in 2017, and the RG R16 against Tommy Haas on his way to the title.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,342 Posts
Flawless, ballerina, maestro, masterclass, champion, legend, god - some of the many descriptions people assign to Federer. I can definitely say Federer is very good at making it look easy at times, often leaving opponents stranded in his wake.

Federer is one of the best frontrunners in the sport. When he takes a lead, it's hard to stop him from cementing it and he can roll through service games in a jiffy. This capacity is also his undoing. There will always be some moments when you don't quite get things going and can't always rely on quick get away cards but he persists with the same strategies anyway. They work most of the time but against very steady and high quality players, this can backfire. Federer is perhaps one of the most stubborn players, who while versatile sometimes is a little too hasty to pull the trigger on a point. Sometimes, he does sacrifice control for style/flair. This is what hurt him at Wimbledon particularly when serving for the match. He got a few nice first serves, then they deserted him. But on top of that, he underestimated the court geometry. Federer is very acute at the net but he also often plays the net from poor positions, or with mediocre approach shots. At other times he plays the FH from the BH corner too often, exposing too much gap. Psyching the opponent is one thing, but the execution doesn't always go with it. The risks if they pay off are handsome, but also gets him into jams.

I've seen more blatant meltdowns in the sport but relative to caliber of player and the stage of action/stakes involved, Federer will be one highly named among those who let opportunities slip.
Absolutely beautifully said.

None the less its hard for me to say Fed is a grand choker, with 20 slams, and many instqnces of outmanouvering and outsmarting opponents in the clutch, just trusting his skill.. Being the calmer party, exuding calmness and allowing the opponent to self destruct.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Federest

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,315 Posts
Yes - Rogie has immense natural talent, but he unfortunately lacks two key physical attributes that Rafa and Nole have huge amounts of: heart and balls
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,295 Posts
Stubborn as said by MWW describes this issue very well. He’s not easily giving up a strategy that has manifested in his head for a particular match even when it‘s obviously not working. A few extrem recent examples are

the Shanghai-match vs. Zverev: in the first set he got passed left and right whenever coming to the net. In the Second set he was suddenly more patient and constructed the points better and only came to the net when it was safe but in the third he suddenly reverted back to the brainless net-rushing and not only that. But his Volleys werw atrocious for the most part I think he got broken by missing two very makeable Volleys. It wasn’t really choking there, it was bad tactics that cost him the match.
the Cincinnati Match vs. Djokovic: he was the better player from the baseline. What lost him the match was his atrocious return. Djokovic had a low 1st %, but federer still missed a total of 14 Second serve returns. That’s almost 4 games effortlessly won for the opponent. He should have realised mid first set that the drive bh Return goes anywhere but the court all the time and switched to the slice. But no he was stubborn and wanted to stay aggressive. And it didn’t get better until the end
The del Potro match at the US open 17: I don’t know how many times federer played the inside in forehand and got punished by del Potro‘s counter cross forehand. But he kept playing the shot over and over again instead of going for the weaker backhand side inside out or just don’t run around leaving the court open.
What bugs me even more is that when he changes his tactics it often works out in his favour. Like in the AO final 5th set when he suddenly didn’t play inside out into nadal’s longline forehand or didn’t mindlessly rush the net at every half assed approach.
 

·
Administrator | Chaos Theory
Joined
·
53,949 Posts
Stubborn as said by MWW describes this issue very well. He’s not easily giving up a strategy that has manifested in his head for a particular match even when it‘s obviously not working. A few extrem recent examples are

the Shanghai-match vs. Zverev: in the first set he got passed left and right whenever coming to the net. In the Second set he was suddenly more patient and constructed the points better and only came to the net when it was safe but in the third he suddenly reverted back to the brainless net-rushing and not only that. But his Volleys werw atrocious for the most part I think he got broken by missing two very makeable Volleys. It wasn’t really choking there, it was bad tactics that cost him the match.
the Cincinnati Match vs. Djokovic: he was the better player from the baseline. What lost him the match was his atrocious return. Djokovic had a low 1st %, but federer still missed a total of 14 Second serve returns. That’s almost 4 games effortlessly won for the opponent. He should have realised mid first set that the drive bh Return goes anywhere but the court all the time and switched to the slice. But no he was stubborn and wanted to stay aggressive. And it didn’t get better until the end
The del Potro match at the US open 17: I don’t know how many times federer played the inside in forehand and got punished by del Potro‘s counter cross forehand. But he kept playing the shot over and over again instead of going for the weaker backhand side inside out or just don’t run around leaving the court open.
What bugs me even more is that when he changes his tactics it often works out in his favour. Like in the AO final 5th set when he suddenly didn’t play inside out into nadal’s longline forehand or didn’t mindlessly rush the net at every half assed approach.
Seppi AO match comes to mind, got passed a lot. Similarly that 2016 AO loss to Djokovic kept half volleying every second baseline shot not giving room to adjust for depth. Sometimes I think he gets too bored with the usual strategies! Playing to Delpo's backhand is safe but "boring" and he wants to show he can match him on the strong side haha.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,570 Posts
Federer certainly could (should) have won a few important matches that he lost, especially against Djokovic. But if he was anything close to a GOAT choker, he would never have come even close to winning 20 slams.
You don't choke against inferior chokers/mugs like Philippussy, Fatdatis, Fat Dave (in slams, his brilliance in Masters is another story) and the likes.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,345 Posts
Stubborn as said by MWW describes this issue very well. He’s not easily giving up a strategy that has manifested in his head for a particular match even when it‘s obviously not working. A few extrem recent examples are

the Shanghai-match vs. Zverev: in the first set he got passed left and right whenever coming to the net. In the Second set he was suddenly more patient and constructed the points better and only came to the net when it was safe but in the third he suddenly reverted back to the brainless net-rushing and not only that. But his Volleys werw atrocious for the most part I think he got broken by missing two very makeable Volleys. It wasn’t really choking there, it was bad tactics that cost him the match.
the Cincinnati Match vs. Djokovic: he was the better player from the baseline. What lost him the match was his atrocious return. Djokovic had a low 1st %, but federer still missed a total of 14 Second serve returns. That’s almost 4 games effortlessly won for the opponent. He should have realised mid first set that the drive bh Return goes anywhere but the court all the time and switched to the slice. But no he was stubborn and wanted to stay aggressive. And it didn’t get better until the end
The del Potro match at the US open 17: I don’t know how many times federer played the inside in forehand and got punished by del Potro‘s counter cross forehand. But he kept playing the shot over and over again instead of going for the weaker backhand side inside out or just don’t run around leaving the court open.
What bugs me even more is that when he changes his tactics it often works out in his favour. Like in the AO final 5th set when he suddenly didn’t play inside out into nadal’s longline forehand or didn’t mindlessly rush the net at every half assed approach.

Imagine being Federer in 2017 and out rallying Nadal from the baseline.

Was a wild year and very smart tactically from Federer (In 80% of matches played...)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,718 Posts
You don't choke against inferior chokers/mugs like Philippussy, Fatdatis, Fat Dave (in slams, his brilliance in Masters is another story) and the likes.
Federer slam final losses against non-Big-3 player: 1
Djokovic slam final losses against non-Big-3 player: 4
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,718 Posts
Some people have such shallow memories when it comes to Federer.

Of his first 7 slam finals, he won 7.
Of his first 11 slam finals, he won 10.
Of his first 14, he won 12.

Then he got mono, but the record is still very good from there:

Of his first 20, he won 15.
Of his first 24, he won 17.

After that, he's well past his prime, but the record is still rather good:

Of these way-past-prime slams, he wins 3 and loses 4.

Of course there are some that got away, but all but one of those were against two other ATGs.

And even last year, Federer (aged 37) beats Rafa (aged 32) in the semis at Wimbledon and comes from a set and a break down to almost beat Novak (aged 31) in the final, and idiots construct a grand retrospective choke narrative just because they're too dumb to understand what it means to fight like he did through those two matches against much younger opponents, how unusual it is for a 37 year old to reach such heights.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,315 Posts
Some people have such shallow memories when it comes to Federer.

Of his first 7 slam finals, he won 7.
Of his first 11 slam finals, he won 10.
Of his first 14, he won 12.

Then he got mono, but the record is still very good from there:

Of his first 20, he won 15.
Of his first 24, he won 17.

After that, he's well past his prime, but the record is still rather good:

Of these way-past-prime slams, he wins 3 and loses 4.

Of course there are some that got away, but all but one of those were against two other ATGs.

And even last year, Federer (aged 37) beats Rafa (aged 32) in the semis at Wimbledon and comes from a set and a break down to almost beat Novak (aged 31) in the final, and idiots construct a grand retrospective choke narrative just because they're too dumb to understand what it means to fight like he did through those two matches against much younger opponents, how unusual it is for a 37 year old to reach such heights.
2005 AO Semifinal, 2005 WTF Final, 2006 Rome Final, 2008 Wimbledon Final, 2010 US Open Semifinal, 2010 Paris Semifinal, 2011 US Open Semifinal, 2014 Monte Carlo Final, 2014 Wimbledon Final, 2015 US Open Final, 2018 Indian Wells Final, 2019 Indian Wells Final, 2019 Wimbledon Final all say hi.

I limited it to semifinals and finals as I haven’t got all day, and I’m sure I forgot some of these even, as this was just off the top of my head
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,718 Posts
2005 AO Semifinal, 2005 WTF Final, 2006 Rome Final, 2008 Wimbledon Final, 2010 US Open Semifinal, 2010 Paris Semifinal, 2011 US Open Semifinal, 2014 Monte Carlo Final, 2014 Wimbledon Final, 2015 US Open Final, 2018 Indian Wells Final, 2019 Indian Wells Final, 2019 Wimbledon Final all say hi.

I limited it to semifinals and finals as I haven’t got all day, and I’m sure I forgot some of these even, as this was just off the top of my head
Lol, you mean in his long and storied career, he lost some semis and finals as well?

Well, fucking duh!

Extra lolz for including the 2005 WTF final (remember the context? nah, I thought not) and for including the 2014 Wimbledon final and the 2015 USO final!

And if we're talking about chokes, then including Wimbledon 2008 (when he came back from 2 sets down) is actually pretty dumb.

And 2019 IW also deserves some lolz. Did you see that match? Dominic was clearly the better player.

You really don't know that much about tennis, do you?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
In these trying times there is not much to watch on television. However currently on ESPN2 the 2009 AO final is airing (following the 2008 Wimbledon final). We all know Federer was the better player in this match and several other matches, but alas he came up short in this match and on several other occasions where one can easily argue he should have won. He has let enough matches slip away where it arguably has cost him his GOAT status and his records are threatened (although he is being assisted now by the virus crisis). For such an outstanding champion who has come up so clutch on more than one occasion, why has Federer choked away so many opportunities? And is he indeed the greatest choker ever to grace the sport?
Roger still has the highest number of wins in history against top 5 players and a total match win ratio that's right up there. I analyzed match data to figure out who the GOAT is and it shows that Federer still reigns supreme -

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,295 Posts
Some people have such shallow memories when it comes to Federer.

Of his first 7 slam finals, he won 7.
Of his first 11 slam finals, he won 10.
Of his first 14, he won 12.

Then he got mono, but the record is still very good from there:

Of his first 20, he won 15.
Of his first 24, he won 17.

After that, he's well past his prime, but the record is still rather good:

Of these way-past-prime slams, he wins 3 and loses 4.

Of course there are some that got away, but all but one of those were against two other ATGs.

And even last year, Federer (aged 37) beats Rafa (aged 32) in the semis at Wimbledon and comes from a set and a break down to almost beat Novak (aged 31) in the final, and idiots construct a grand retrospective choke narrative just because they're too dumb to understand what it means to fight like he did through those two matches against much younger opponents, how unusual it is for a 37 year old to reach such heights.
he inexplicably got his ass kicked by washed up guga at 2004 RG after having just won the Hamburg masters. Then he lost to safin in a Match he probably should’ve closed in 3.(I just recently watched the highlights and man Federer was so superior in every way, but he got cocky and took it too easy.) Then he completely lost his footing after dominating nadal in the 2006 rg final and breadsticking him. a year later he was 1/17 while nadal was 4/7. This was the first time he really showed his weak mentality. A year later he had his most terrible forehand performance in A match ever and still could’ve won but he choked away a lead in the Second.
2010 and 2011 uso don’t require any more commentary. 2015 Wimbledon was weird Match. Federer had a Break lead in the first and the third set but his serve was so off that day that he couldn’t get it over the finish line. Also errors started piling up in the middle of the third. 2015 uso 3/22. I almost screamed in agony while watching that match.

also I wouldn‘t say thiem was the better player overall. Both won the set in which they played better but federer had a break point first in the third. Then he kinda gifted the break with a couple of stupid dropshot. Kinda like the match points a year before. Man crazy to think that Federer could have 9 IW titles by now had he just been a bit stronger mentally.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top