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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
He won 4/6 slam finals before his prime in a strong era (2008-2012AO) with consistent penetrating shot making. Then he lost 6 of 9 finals in his prime with gutless pushing and mental collapses in a declining era after that point. In practice no one should really trouble him with novak's game entering his prime. Given his superhuman consistency in non slam tournaments, he has repeatably produced sub par performances in big matches

some shockingly bad losses in restrospect:

* W SF 2012
* US F 2012
* RG SF 2013 * for choking reasons
* W F 2013 in straight sets
* US F 2013: awful awful collaspe in the 3rd set, gave up
* AO QF: definitely was the better player that day, coulda have played backdal
* US SF 2014, unbelievable loss to a player than is worse than him in every aspect of the game.
* RG F 2015: Stan fired off some amazing winners on the run, but really was pushing balls for a lot of the rallies with nole, his 2011 self woulda have dissected these points before stan could dictate.

I recall that he was slightly to heavily favoured in all of these matches aside from RG 2013, edit: and uso 2013 maybe

that is 7-8 more slams in matches that he should have won.
 

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Djokovic has had bad losses, but so have Nadal and Federer.

It looks like if Djokovic had discovered his gluten problem earlier (assuming this is an actual problem) he might have done better in the beginning of his career. Or maybe not, as he could be a late bloomer.

It's a hard question to answer, plus Djokovic could end up winning 2, 4, or even more slams (which would make him into a legendary player, if he already isn't).
 

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He won 4/6 slam finals before his prime in a strong era (2008-2012AO) with consistent penetrating shot making. Then he lost 6 of 9 finals in his prime with gutless pushing and mental collapses in a declining era after that point. In practice no one should really trouble him with novak's game entering his prime. Given his superhuman consistency in non slam tournaments, he has repeatably produced sub par performances in big matches

some shockingly bad losses in restrospect:

* W SF 2012
* US F 2012
* RG SF 2013
* W F 2013 in straight sets
* US F 2013: awful awful collaspe in the 3rd set, gave up
* AO QF: definitely was the better player that day, coulda have played backdal
* US SF 2014, unbelievable loss to a player than is worse than him in every aspect of the game.
* RG F 2015: Stan fired off some amazing winners on the run, but really was pushing balls for a lot of the rallies with nole, his 2011 self woulda have dissected these points before stan could dictate.

I recall that he was slightly to heavily favoured in many of these matches.

that is 8 more slams in matches that he shoulda have won.
Djokovic did not win 4/6 Slam finals with 'consistent penetrating shotmaking'.
He didn't lose 6 of 9 due to being mentally weak.
He didn't give up the USO 2013 final.
He wasn't clearly the better player, if at all, vs Wawrinka at AO 2014
Nishikori is not worse than him in every aspect of the game.

With so many wrong premises, of course the conclusion is also wrong.
 

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Djokovic did not win 4/6 Slam finals with 'consistent penetrating shotmaking'.
He didn't lose 6 of 9 due to being mentally weak.
He didn't give up the USO 2013 final.
He wasn't clearly the better player, if at all, vs Wawrinka at AO 2014
Nishikori is not worse than him in every aspect of the game.

With so many wrong premises, of course the conclusion is also wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Djokovic has had bad losses, but so have Nadal and Federer.

It looks like if Djokovic had discovered his gluten problem earlier (assuming this is an actual problem) he might have done better in the beginning of his career. Or maybe not, as he could be a late bloomer.

It's a hard question to answer, plus Djokovic could end up winning 2, 4, or even more slams (which would make him into a legendary player, if he already isn't).
I suppose the only really bad losses where he wasn't that injured was soderling, and Darcis.

For roger, he wasn't really meant to compete after 2009, but he performed better than expected so you really can't knock him there. But his 2011 W, USO 2009-2011 losses were pretty rubbish.

Novak was on route to become the greatest of all time, but can merely settle for "all time great" status if he vultures a few more in this weak era.
 

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with his talent ... yeah ... he kind of underachieved. he didn't have easy draws or a weak clay era to count on. but i still think he can reach 14 slams... it will be tough but he can do it
 

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No. He's been fortunate to win a lot of the matches he has in the slams he's won.
 

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:facepalm: These threads are getting tiresome.
 

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8 slams and he underachieved? He's not that good that he needs 10+ slams to justify his ability.
 

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No, it's sort of baffling how this myth of Djokovic has come about on this forum where people talk about him as if he shouldn't ever lose a match. Of the Grand Slam finals he's lost literally the only ones he was the favourite to win was US Open 2012 and this year's French where he was comprehensively outplayed by a bad matchup. Both losses to multiple GS champs on arguably their best surfaces so not bad losses at all.

Besides this he has 8 Slams, years at #1, a million Masters and WTF titles etc...
 

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Djokovic wasn't in his prime in 2011? :superlol: That was his peak year. It's downhill since.

If he ends his career with 8 GS that may be an under achievement kind of like Agassi with 8. Agassi may be the biggest under achiever of all time.
 

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He has had some unfortunate losses but I actually think his "under-performing" in slams is somewhat exaggerated. One interesting fact is that (since 2011) Djokovic has made it to 13 out of 18 grand slam finals. That's 72%! Compare that to the number of masters finals he has made in that same time period and I believe it was around 54% (obviously the rate is a bit higher if you discount the tournaments he didn't participate in, but still).

The only problem, statistically speaking, is his winning percentage in GS finals specifically (Masters finals winning percentage is a lot higher obviously). But even so, there were only a few matches out of those he lost that I feel he "should" have won. Out of the matches OP listed I think that only USO 2012 and RG 2013 should have been wins for Novak. As for the rest:

W 2012 SF - No shame in losing to Federer at Wimbledon. Djokovic was decent but was kind of going through a rough patch vs. the Big 4 in general.
W 2013 F - Was clearly exhausted from the start after the Del Po SF. Plus Murray played a fantastic match.
USO 2013 F / USO 2014 SF - In both cases Djokovic was playing mediocre tennis, not just in those matches but throughout the whole tournament. ESPECIALLY in 2014, his form throughout the entire NA HC season was terrible. It's not as if he just suddenly started choking against Nishikori. And in 2013 Nadal was in peak HC form and was the favorite to win anyway.
AO 2014 - This one could have really gone either way. But after all the close matches Djokovic and Wawrinka had had it wasn't too surprising that Stan might eventually prevail in one of them.
RG 2015 - His level was pretty good overall but Wawrinka's form spoke for itself. That combined with the 3 straight days of play and it's not surprising at all that he lost.

Given all this information it really isn't too surprising that he lost most of these matches above.
 

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He should have at least 10 slams by now, especially with his level of "way above the rest of the field", yearly W-L record, weeks at number 1, donation etc. etc. etc ...
Nobody actually mentioned his W-L record at slam events until after FO @ 8-8.
May be we've been brainwashed by JMac.

Only real boss Fed questioned " all time #4, what ?????????".
 

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He has had some unfortunate losses but I actually think his "under-performing" in slams is somewhat exaggerated. One interesting fact is that (since 2011) Djokovic has made it to 13 out of 18 grand slam finals. That's 72%! Compare that to the number of masters finals he has made in that same time period and I believe it was around 54% (obviously the rate is a bit higher if you discount the tournaments he didn't participate in, but still).

The only problem, statistically speaking, is his winning percentage in GS finals specifically (Masters finals winning percentage is a lot higher obviously). But even so, there were only a few matches out of those he lost that I feel he "should" have won. Out of the matches OP listed I think that only USO 2012 and RG 2013 should have been wins for Novak. As for the rest:

W 2012 SF - No shame in losing to Federer at Wimbledon. Djokovic was decent but was kind of going through a rough patch vs. the Big 4 in general.
W 2013 F - Was clearly exhausted from the start after the Del Po SF. Plus Murray played a fantastic match.
USO 2013 F / USO 2014 SF - In both cases Djokovic was playing mediocre tennis, not just in those matches but throughout the whole tournament. ESPECIALLY in 2014, his form throughout the entire NA HC season was terrible. It's not as if he just suddenly started choking against Nishikori. And in 2013 Nadal was in peak HC form and was the favorite to win anyway.
AO 2014 - This one could have really gone either way. But after all the close matches Djokovic and Wawrinka had had it wasn't too surprising that Stan might eventually prevail in one of them.
RG 2015 - His level was pretty good overall but Wawrinka's form spoke for itself. That combined with the 3 straight days of play and it's not surprising at all that he lost.

Given all this information it really isn't too surprising that he lost most of these matches above.
His last couple of USO series campaigns have been very ordinary, no doubt about it.
I thought he might have had just enough time to "play himself in" last year at the USO (after a poor preparation), but was found wanting in the heat against Nishikori.
2013 he was never in that match, apart from a short period.
2012 Wimbledon though still irks me, he really underestimated Federer.
 

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People are so used to domination from Federer and Nadal, and from Djokovic in 2011, that they assume it's the norm. Historically, Djokovic is pretty par for the course. Why is his losing to Andy Murray any more odd than Lendl repeatedly losing to Boris Becker?
 

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not really, it just appears that way since Fedal is so good in GS. In the old days, it is very normal the best player in the draw not end up winning slams.
 

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Sampras after 28th birthday, three seasons before the last GS win;

12 GS / 2 F
10 Masters / 7 F
5 WTF / 1 F

27 titles + 10 F

Djokovic after 28th birthday;

8 GS / 8 F
24 Masters / 10 F
4 WTF

36 titles + 18 F
 

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Sampras after 28th birthday, three seasons before the last GS win.

12 GS / 2 F
10 Masters / 7 F
5 WTF / 1 F

Djokovic after 28th birthday

8 GS / 8 F
24 Masters / 10 F
4 WTF
Sampras had no serious competition in slams. Agassi went AWOL for half the 90s.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Sampras had no serious competition in slams. Agassi went AWOL for half the 90s.
Djokovic was a far superior overall player relative to the field
 
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