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Discussion Starter #1
He pointed out that Novak has 23 wins in a row against 2-handers but his only three losses this year were against 1-handers. He felt that the low slicers and different trajectories created by the one-handers (the great ones albeit) are harder for Novak than the predictable power and trajectory of the two-handers. Valid point IMO. Not like he is saying that a one-hander will always beat Novak. Gimelstob pointed out that Nadal's leftiness also can throw off Novak. Discuss (if you like tennis tactics, that is).
 

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Well it's pretty well known that Djokovic has more difficulties against low-bouncing balls. To me it seems that he uses his torso a lot to hit his shots and create power, whereas you need to activate the arms more in lower balls. One-handers will usually naturally have a better, more biting slice (as opposed to a floating one). I also think the changes of pace throw him off, a one-hander might slice a few balls and then absolutely pound one down the line like Wawrinka does or Federer sometimes.
 

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He pointed out that Novak has 23 wins in a row against 2-handers but his only three losses this year were against 1-handers. He felt that the low slicers and different trajectories created by the one-handers (the great ones albeit) are harder for Novak than the predictable power and trajectory of the two-handers. Valid point IMO. Not like he is saying that a one-hander will always beat Novak. Gimelstob pointed out that Nadal's leftiness also can throw off Novak. Discuss (if you like tennis tactics, that is).
Nole was injured and beat those 2 guys about 30 times so no and he dominates Nadal when he is physically well.
 

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Absolutely the only way to beat Novak Djokovic unless you're Rafael Nadal on clay is to take him out of his baseline rythm and the way to do that is to change up the pace of shots during rallies; ie; introduce slice, cat and mouse with all sorts of other junk. This way you get Djoker out of his rythm in being able maintain an immaculate depth on his every groundstroke. That's the way to beat the top players, essentially, you have got to take them out of their comfort zone.

This is the very reason Djokovic lost that US Open final to Murray, because the conditions were extremely windy and that meant he had to adjust to low balls and balls changing direction at the last second, Murray had to also, but was equal to it, because Murray has that ability to take one hand of the backhand and slice it. Djoker couldn't return slice with slice and often in windy condiotions its hard to get down and low to hit your backhand, whether it be double or single hand.

Also if you look at the Wimbledon final, the reason Djoker was making lots of mistakes, other than the fact he had a bad day, was actually because Murray was able to knife backhands and feed him all sorts of variations in pace. On grass slice and dice is 20 x more affective than on any other surface.

Novak is used to playing at ONE pace during a rally from the baseline, not several different paces which keep switching up between each other. Murray however can deal with that, Djokovic not. This is why Murray suits grass, because he has the variety and doesnt' rely on one rythm of rallying from the baseline, Djokovic is used to one rythm, one pace. It's a credit to Novak that he was even able to win that one Wimbledon title.
 

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Oh well, failed thread. :( Nobody likes having to think about why this could be the case.
Read my reply.

I like to discuss the technical side of the sport, I played college level and also coached, so that's my interest.

Not everyone here is a flaming fanboy with bubble-writing text using all the colours of the rainbow which state their favourite players in their signatures.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Yes also I have noticed that Novak can struggle with very high low pace shots to his backhand. Nobody likes that. Tsonga tried to use it a lot but Novak knew that if he just hit a solid shot and then relied on his legs that he could neutralize. He cannot get away with that against Fed, peak Stan or peak Murray because they would not just let him off the hook like Tsonga did with a UE or Rafa does by just spitting the ball back with even more topspin from behind the baseline.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Absolutely the only way to beat Novak Djokovic unless you're Rafael Nadal on clay is to take him out of his baseline rythm and the way to do that is to change up the pace of shots during rallies; ie; introduce slice, cat and mouse with all sorts of other junk. This way you get Djoker out of his rythm in being able maintain an immaculate depth on his every groundstroke. That's the way to beat the top players, essentially, you have got to take them out of their comfort zone.

This is the very reason Djokovic lost that US Open final to Murray, because the conditions were extremely windy and that meant he had to adjust to low balls and balls changing direction at the last second, Murray had to also, but was equal to it, because Murray has that ability to take one hand of the backhand and slice it. Djoker couldn't return slice with slice and often in windy condiotions its hard to get down and low to hit your backhand, whether it be double or single hand.

Also if you look at the Wimbledon final, the reason Djoker was making lots of mistakes, other than the fact he had a bad day, was actually because Murray was able to knife backhands and feed him all sorts of variations in pace. On grass slice and dice is 20 x more affective than on any other surface.

Novak is used to playing at ONE pace during a rally from a baseline, not several different paces which keep switching up between each other. Murray however can deal with that, Djokovic not. This is why Murray suits grass, because he has the variety and doesnt' rely on one rythm of rallying from the baseline, Djokovic is used to one rythm, one pace. It's a credit to Novak that he was even able to win that one Wimbledon title.
Murray is more malleable and creative spontaneously. Novak is more like a machine, like a train that could get derailed by the unexpected. Granted, it's a tough, heavy train so it's not easy to do. I don't really agree with the contention that there is only ONE WAY to beat any player. Some ways are MORE LIKELY to work but in theory any style can be any player if that style is carried out to a level that we may have never seen yet. It's sort of like this "peak level" garbage people use to justify how their fave is better even after a loss. They fall back on the "peak card" to say "well my fave is better at his peak." Of course, that is all make-believe because we have no way to ever know where the hypothetical lies. Despite all that I do believe that in general any style of play can beat any player if it is carried out to the max.
 

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Yeah, but it's slicing the ball on clay really isn't anywhere near as affective than on grass or even fast to medium hardcourts, primarily because whilst the ball stays low, the play still has time to get down low (Bend their knees) and get up and underneath the ball so they can loft it up and over with control and accuracy. On a grasscourt, the ball skids when it makes contact with the court, particularly when it has slice on it, so you get less time to improvise and prepare for your groundie.
 

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Speaking of his game his backhand down the line is a million times better this year than it was lat year when it completely deserted him.
 

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Not really that interesting.

Is well known that Djokovic struggles with one handers.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Nole was injured and beat those 2 guys about 30 times so no and he dominates Nadal when he is physically well.
Nole could be injured in many other matches that he is winning though. Perhaps the low slices pick on that injury or cause him to work harder. Everyone is carrying injuries, pains and vulnerabilities in their games most of the time. Perhaps one style aggravates that more than others. This thread is about tactics and observations, not about picking on Djokovic who is just phenomenal and one of my all-time faves.
 

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He pointed out that Novak has 23 wins in a row against 2-handers but his only three losses this year were against 1-handers. He felt that the low slicers and different trajectories created by the one-handers (the great ones albeit) are harder for Novak than the predictable power and trajectory of the two-handers. Valid point IMO. Not like he is saying that a one-hander will always beat Novak. Gimelstob pointed out that Nadal's leftiness also can throw off Novak. Discuss (if you like tennis tactics, that is).
There are some exceptions in the two handers as well who do that very well and who, as by chance, have had lot of success against Djoker (Murray comes to mind).

Djoker has tons of problems against players who can slice very well.
 

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Cluch, you are glorifying Murray. I can't take your post serious. But I will agree about that particular match between Murray and Djokovic and pacing out. However, Murray is not doing that always. Not even on a good day. And waiting for opponent mistake is not something you should be proud of. Besides, since that outburst thread, with pletera butthurting(similar to hipolymer for Djokovic) , I question your objectivity, especially when fandom take your sane view. And now I read this? Boosting allmighty Murray on something that happened when exactly , I fail to understand your point with OPs ?

- To the OP - Well you seem to be moody. Everybody is watching tv now. Its a good thread.
To answer a question - Djokovic passing is unstable, his hitting power vary , and inconstant. Players like. "Murray" , Delpo, Wawrinka, Federer if lend on a good footing will throw Djokovic off running for the ball.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yeah, but it's slicing the ball on clay really isn't anywhere near as affective than on grass or even fast to medium hardcourts, primarily because whilst the ball stays low, the play still has time to get down low (Bend their knees) and get up and underneath the ball so they can loft it up and over with control and accuracy. On a grasscourt, the ball skids when it makes contact with the court, particularly when it has slice on it, so you get less time to improvise and prepare for your groundie.
Rafa tried using it a lot last year and it did destabilize Novak AT TIMES because he did not want to take the bait of following it into the net so that Rafa could exploit Nole's poor net game. Nole played patient off of those left slices and did not let it ruffle him too much but it did allow Rafa more time to use his own forehand quite often. This year, however, Nole seems to punish those shots from Rafa more as he recognized that Rafa was standing closer and tighter to the baseline than before. That can actually take time back away from Rafa if Novak hits an aggressively deep shot and then works Rafa over and either hits a winner or makes his way into the net once he is in control of the rally.
 

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Murray is more malleable and creative spontaneously. Novak is more like a machine, like a train that could get derailed by the unexpected. Granted, it's a tough, heavy train so it's not easy to do. I don't really agree with the contention that there is only ONE WAY to beat any player. Some ways are MORE LIKELY to work but in theory any style can be any player if that style is carried out to a level that we may have never seen yet. It's sort of like this "peak level" garbage people use to justify how their fave is better even after a loss. They fall back on the "peak card" to say "well my fave is better at his peak." Of course, that is all make-believe because we have no way to ever know where the hypothetical lies. Despite all that I do believe that in general any style of play can beat any player if it is carried out to the max.
Well, there's obviously no 'one way' to beat a player, however there is probably a most affective way to set yourself on a road towards doing so. Getting into baseline duels with Djokovic on a hardcourt is bloody hard, Murray can vouch for this with his endless, marathon battles at the Australian Open with the bloke. If you wanna give yourself the best opportunity to beat Djokovic and you're Andy Murray, you have to play to his weaknesses and take him out of his comfort zone and off the baseline as much as possible. Asking Djokovic to play slice backhands in windy conditions by keeping the ball low and cutting through the court with slice, is probably a pattern of play that helped MURRAY. Also bringing Djokovic into the net with cat and mouse drop shots, dinks, flicks, lobs etc and shit help too.

If you wanna try and out move Djokovic from the baseline, then alright, but you'll need to play ridiculously good tennis, particularly on a hardcourt at grandslams, Murray knows this and learned this from the wind that came about on that one day in Flushing Meadows. I'm not saying Murray can't beat Djokovic with a baseline game, but he def increases his chances when mixing up his play. This is proven by the fact Djokovic has lost to single handers whom add a lot of slice and variation to their backhand wing.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Well, there's obviously no 'one way' to beat a player, however there is probably a most affective way to set yourself on a road towards doing so. Getting into baseline duels with Djokovic on a hardcourt is bloody hard, Murray can vouch for this with his endless, marathon battles at the Australian Open with the bloke. If you wanna give yourself the best opportunity to beat Djokovic and you're Andy Murray, you have to play to your opponents weaknesses and take them out of their comfort zone. Asking Djokovic to play slice backhands in windy conditions by keeping the ball low and cutting through the court with slice, is probably a pattern of play, MURRAY looks towards going to. Also bringing Djokovic into the net with cat and mouse drop shots, dinks, flicks, lobs etc and shit help too.

If you wanna try and out move Djokovic from the baseline, then alright, but you'll need to play ridiculously good tennis, particularly on a hardcourt at grandslams, Murray knows this and learned this from the wind that came about on that one day in Flushing Meadows. I'm not saying Murray can't beat Djokovic with a baseline game, but he def increases his chances when mixing up his play. This is proven by the fact Djokovic has lost to single handers whom add a lot of slice and variation to their backhand wing.
Okay well we agree on that though. I was stating that some styles will get you there more easily than others. That's why tactics and game plans exist basically. I hate it when people say "I am just gonna go out and there and play my game." Well duh!!! But you still have to decide which PARTS of your game to use most frequently against any particular opponent.
 

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Well, 2 of his 3 losses were against the GOAT, so I don't blame him. But it is funny that Djokovic has only lost to swiss men this year. lol
 

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ClutchOn said it all, variety is the one thing that hurts Djokovic more than anything.
 
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