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i'd love to hear about Murray/Nadal Match-up, would the current Murray (improved serve and forehand) farewell against Nadal's controlled aggression?
 

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Discussion Starter #264 (Edited)
Maybe it will be interesting to discuss how some players can try overcome these match-up issues.

We saw Del Potro overcome his match-up issue against Ferrer at Wimbledon by playing more aggressively from the baseline.

Is there any measures players can take to try overcome some on these match-up issues?
Of course matchup issues can be overcome. The best example for delPo, though, would be the 2009 USO final, a good Federer is definitely the worst matchup on tour for him, yet delPo beat him when the stakes were the highest after being stomped a lot of times before and after that match.

The thing is, unlike delPo or Nadal, etc..., most players on tour just don't have the tools or mental strength to overcome a bad matchup. For instance, how do Gasquet and Wawrinka react to Nadal taking their BHs off the match? Simple, they don't. What can Ferrer do differently against Federer? Nothing. del Potro and Cilic can make a lot of good returns off the Isner serve - how can Isner react to this? He can't (yes, I know he beat delPo last weekend, but let's be real here, he was a point away from losing to a delPo with no serve and unable to flatten his BH, especially on return).

Most players are just not good enough to adjust. Those who are usually have big titles to their name, being able to overcome bad matchups is one of the things that defines champions.

i'd love to hear about Murray/Nadal Match-up, would the current Murray (improved serve and forehand) farewell against Nadal's controlled aggression?
We'll have to wait and see, but I'd expect a fit Nadal to still have the edge. Murray's improvements are overrated anyway; not saying there are no improvements at all, but they are pretty marginal. He was always capable of beating Djokovic, Fedal are a declined force (and Nadal was absent last year), while the non-top 4 field gets weaker by the week.
 

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We'll have to wait and see, but I'd expect a fit Nadal to still have the edge. Murray's improvements are overrated anyway; not saying there are no improvements at all, but they are pretty marginal. He was always capable of beating Djokovic, Fedal are a declined force (and Nadal was absent last year), while the non-top 4 field gets weaker by the week.
How's it overrated in your opinion?

As far as i know, Nadal's bread and butter play against murray is to target his weaker wing forehand and hope it breaks down (aka Wimbly2011/USO2011), The shot now itself is way better thanks to lendl and as we seen against Federer this year it was dictating the rallies, Nadal's only advantage i see him taking on murray outside the clay is Murray's Mental strength which is guees we're going to see if both meet at the USO this year (i hope).

So tactical aspect, I think current Nadal Doesn't Have what it takes to Bring Down Murray outside clay.
 

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Discussion Starter #266
How's it overrated in your opinion?

As far as i know, Nadal's bread and butter play against murray is to target his weaker wing forehand and hope it breaks down (aka Wimbly2011/USO2011), The shot now itself is way better thanks to lendl and as we seen against Federer this year it was dictating the rallies, Nadal's only advantage i see him taking on murray outside the clay is Murray's Mental strength which is guees we're going to see if both meet at the USO this year (i hope).

So tactical aspect, I think current Nadal Doesn't Have what it takes to Bring Down Murray outside clay.
I don't think Murray is doing anything post-2012 that he wasn't capable of doing before. His improved success has been a combination of managing to peak at the right times (improved tenfold at Slams, worse at Masters), increased belief and a significant dip in the level of competition: Federer is totally gone, Nadal was out for a long time and not in his peak anyway, and the field below the top 4 is only getting weaker.

Dictating rallies against current Federer doesn't mean that much, everyone in the top 8 bar Ferrer can do it pretty easily most of the time, Federer's level has really dipped tremendously this year.

As for Murray vs Nadal, I'd still favor Nadal on average. If he keeps his form, Murray will have to be at his best to have a chance to take 3 sets off him, that means a high % of 1st serves and a very good FH day. No idea what you mean with Nadal targetting the Murray FH and hoping it breaks down, it's more a case of Murray's FH not being able to hit through Nadal although his BH can hold the onslaught of Nadal's FH for the most part.
 

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I actually agree with regards to Murray. He was beaten by a not-at-all-great Federer last year at the O2. I would certainly like to see Federer play Murray after Ferrer in the QFs of the USO if the seedings play out as expected and he reaches that stage.

I think his mentality to attack with the FH has improved and he believes more but he is still prone to leaking errors, as his aggressive game is just not as good or reliable. His BH has also deteriorated.
 

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Discussion Starter #268 (Edited)
I actually agree with regards to Murray. He was beaten by a not-at-all-great Federer last year at the O2. I would certainly like to see Federer play Murray after Ferrer in the QFs of the USO if the seedings play out as expected and he reaches that stage.

I think his mentality to attack with the FH has improved and he believes more but he is still prone to leaking errors, as his aggressive game is just not as good or reliable. His BH has also deteriorated.
I agree. The field has just weakened. Federer's decline is apparent, Nadal hasn't been a factor in Slams off clay for a while, although that might change, del Potro keeps getting a new injury every other week... the rest of the field are just not good enough to challenge for major titles and there hasn't been new talent breaking through for years now.

The depth is just bad atm, Murray could have won Wimbledon in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 if he had the draw he did this year imo, his title wasn't a result of any particular improvements but mostly softer competition, don't think he played any better this year than when he lost to Roddick, Nadal and Federer in SF/F.
 

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What do we make of the Del Potro/Djokovic match up? Probably my favourite on the tour at the moment, especially when they're both playing well. Djokovic currently leads the H2H 9-3 but it's 2-1 in 2013 with a great win for JMDP at Indian Wells as well as the recent classic at Wimbledon.

Probably the most titanic and gruelling (in a good way) match that takes place on the HCs of the tour. Their match at last year's USO was about as entertaining as a straight sets win can be :D
 

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It would be interesting to analyze the Berdych - Anderson rivalry deeper that it was done in the thread before. Wawrinka - Stepanek and Gasquet - Tursunov are interesting match-ups as well.

Obviously if this was easy to analyse, more players would be serving like that against Berdych :p You can see Nadal often serves with a lot of spin out wide, but there are probably specific spots that really trouble Berdych even more. It'd be interest to see some charts of Nadal's serving placement against Berdych though (and Wawrinka while we're at it, Nadal looks like a servebot every time he faces those two).

And yes, big hitters are all different; there seems to be the myth that big hitters at their best will beat Nadal always, but of course that's not the case. It might be true for some big hitters (emphasis on some), but not for most.
Yes as you say it could be something relate to the effect that Nadal puts on their balls when serving. Probably Berdych and Wawrinka as you say are one of the players that suffer more with Nadal serve.

Yes he did. Fognini said in the interviews that Nadal suggested him to serve at the body in crucial points.

http://www.ubitennis.com/sport/tennis/2013/04/18/875526-fognini_stende_berdych.shtml

"Nadal mi ha detto di servirgli al corpo"
I didn't know that. Serve to the body in the important points is something common. Maybe Berdych dislikes more when players are serving to his body but I expected something related to put the ball in an specific zone with an specific effect. I have the feeling that Nadal uses more patterns when serving against Berdych.
 

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Hewitt/Del Potro. Interested to know what happens here.

Interesting that a lot of Potro's bad match-up's are from the so-called weak era.
Hewitt can eat up Delpo's pace easier than most and his redirection ability is outstanding. He has very good passing shots, is a good returner.
 

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I don't think there's a match up issue here for Del Potro. Maybe he respects Hewitt too much i don't know. This ain't early 2000's he should look at the rankings and watch how inferior players handle Hewitt pretty well.
 

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Del Potro is interresting comparing to other players, he matchups well vs big hitters, overpowering them, having more consistency from baseline, also better defence-long reach, strong winners from back of the court, but he has problems with guys like Ferrer, Simon, Hewitt, returners, baseliners who can handle his pace and stay with him in long rallies where he will misfire -something he is doing to big hitters staying in rallies until they missfire.
 

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On a similar note, what style of players do you think people struggle with?

For mine:

Djokovic: doesn't have a lot of weakness, but those with good slices can at least test him.
Nadal: early ball hitters with better backhands.
Murray: power hitters with strong backhands. On a lesser level, grinders.
Ferrer: those who have the variety to stop the match going into a grinding contest.
Berdych: those who have the defensive depth in shots to pin him back along the baseline.
Del Potro: those who deal with power well and can hang in with rallies.
Federer: those with spinny forehands (at his best), those who have a combination of variety and consistency to frustrate him, ballbashers now in general (due to his declining movement).
Tsonga: those with strong backhands & ROS, and those who can outhit him.
Gasquet: those who can outgrind him and therefore trap him, those with spinny forehands.
Wawrinka: those with spinny forehands (like most one-handers). Tough to say as my perceptions about him are less clear than the rest of the Top 10.
 

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What about Verdasco/Djokovic?
Head to head is tight because Verdasco played Djokovic two times in 2005 and 2006 when Djokovic was playing qualies to get in slams or masters main draws. Also they met two times in 2010 when Djokovic tried a different serve motion.

The thread is called "in depth analysis..." so feel free to dissect it but that's the main reason for me.
 
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