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Discussion Starter #1
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/it-is-serena-williams-who-owes-an-apology-to-umpire-carlos-ramos-20180909-p502q2.html

I know this happened in a women's match, but Ramos is primarily a men's umpire and we've discussed the incident, so I thought I'd start a discussion.

I am firmly on the side of Carlos Ramos, and quite frankly, believe Serena simply wanted to be seen and take the spotlight off Osaka and the fact that she was getting outplayed. Crying "sexism" is so disrespectful to the actual discrimination (and there is plenty of it) that goes on in tennis and in our society.

Serena has no one to blame but herself. She took a warning as an attack on her character rather than just acknowledging that an infraction was committed and moving on. SHE WOULD NOT LET IT GO, AND THAT IS HER OWN FAULT.

And let me tell you, the "thief" comment is a big no-no, not just in tennis, but in other sports. Phrases that challenge the integrity of the officiating, as that term clearly does, are penalized IMMEDIATELY. Was a game penalty too harsh? That is not Ramos's call; he only has the penalty schedule to go by, and that was Serena's third strike. Everyone watching TV heard it; if he had not called verbal abuse there, he would have lost the respect of his umpiring peers and supervisors.

I would make the exact same comments if we took out "Serena" and inserted "Novak," "Roger," or "Rafa." Of course, I am highly of the opinion that Serena is the only player in the world who would let it get to this point. The men would have let it go and not let it escalate to the point where the Carlos Ramos's hands would be tied.
 

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I didn't watch the match, but piecing it together from various reports, it seems that when Serena and Ramos talked about the coaching violation, she seemed to get the impression that the coaching violation had been cancelled at the end. If so, that was an incredibly naive assumption from someone who has been 20 years on tour. In any case, when she got a point penalty after the racket smash, the misunderstanding became apparent (because: warning -> point penalty -> game penalty -> match default), so Serena ended up taking it personally and imploded from there on out.

Personally I'd put the lion's share of blame at Serena's feet, but given that it was a GS final, Ramos could've at least warned Serena, that if she kept attacking his integrity, she would be docked a game penalty.

Technically, Ramos did nothing wrong, but I'd like to see a bit more touch from a "Gold Badge" referee, especially in such a high-stakes match. Not Lahyani-level touch, but just a tiny bit more than he showed that day.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
How do we know that Ramos didn't warn, or at least attempt to warn her, about what would happen if she didn't move on? The TV mic only picked up Serena's words, and it's clear that she wasn't interested in what he had to say. She cut him off multiple times. Who's to say he wasn't just being talked over when he was trying to coax her into calming down? At some point, his hands are tied. You can only talk players out of violations so much before taking care of business. If Carlos didn't handle this appropriately, it's such that he gave her TOO MUCH leeway. The rules don't change in a GS final.

The "thief" comment is automatic. Someone with as much experience as Serena knows this. Quite frankly, I think she was being intentionally ignorant.
 

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Serena Williams tried to:
1. Intimidate the umpire
2. Intimidate her young opponent
3. Get the crowd behind her

Well, she succeeded at one thing. This is nothing new for her, it happens in almost every match of hers that doesn't go smoothly her way, and it's the reason I immediately change the channel when I see her playing.

Remember when she threatened to shove a ball down that poor lineswoman's throat?

If her argument is that men don't get punished equally when throwing tantrums, I dare you to find a male tennis player who behaves as ludicrously as Serena during those tantrums. I'm thinking of the likes of Kyrgios and Fognini, and I cannot recall anything on the same level of behavior.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
If her argument is that men don't get punished equally when throwing tantrums, I dare you to find a male tennis player who behaves as ludicrously as Serena during those tantrums. I'm thinking of the likes of Kyrgios and Fognini, and I cannot recall anything on the same level of behavior.
A-freaking-men.

She claims that men who have said "thief" were not given code violations. I can't recall any male player who has used that term or a similar one implying a lack of integrity and was not penalized. I don't recall any incidents where a male player said "thief" at all.
 

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I didn't watch the match, but piecing it together from various reports, it seems that when Serena and Ramos talked about the coaching violation, she seemed to get the impression that the coaching violation had been cancelled at the end. If so, that was an incredibly naive assumption from someone who has been 20 years on tour. In any case, when she got a point penalty after the racket smash, the misunderstanding became apparent (because: warning -> point penalty -> game penalty -> match default), so Serena ended up taking it personally and imploded from there on out.

Personally I'd put the lion's share of blame at Serena's feet, but given that it was a GS final, Ramos could've at least warned Serena, that if she kept attacking his integrity, she would be docked a game penalty.

Technically, Ramos did nothing wrong, but I'd like to see a bit more touch from a "Gold Badge" referee, especially in such a high-stakes match. Not Lahyani-level touch, but just a tiny bit more than he showed that day.
Sorry but no. Being called a "thief" and a "liar" is completely beyond the pale and a warning is fully appropriate, no matter the circumstances.

Remember that famous US Open match between Connors and Krickstein when Connors began insulting the umpire calling him a "bum" and whatnot? The umpire took it without doing anything, probably afraid of penalising Connors, but in reality he should have done exactly that. That propelled the crowd to stand fully behind Connors. The end result was that he totally lost control of the match.
 

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BTW both Cecchinato and Djokovic got a coaching warning by guess who.... Carlos Ramos. It ended up just as a weird situation, nothing else. Serena, on the other hand, wanted to make an issue out of it and a load of feminists advanced the 'men trying to shut women up' theme with this when nothing could be further from the truth. Ramos has in the past given penalties to several mens players but this is the first time he is being criticized for doing his job - and by people who know jack about tennis. The 'men get away with this' argument is pure drivel. One just need check the recent history books on players getting disqualified. (From Fognini to Medvedev to JMac).

If Serena wants special treatment for being a woman, she should realize Ramos is older to her and talk with some respect. Only then can the exchange be opened to informal negotiation. As for the 'misunderstanding', no one likes being talked to in the way Serena talked to Ramos. If it were me, I would purposely not clear the misunderstanding and let Serena get the penalty. Nothing wrong with that.
 

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Serena Williams tried to:
1. Intimidate the umpire
2. Intimidate her young opponent
3. Get the crowd behind her

Well, she succeeded at one thing. This is nothing new for her, it happens in almost every match of hers that doesn't go smoothly her way, and it's the reason I immediately change the channel when I see her playing.

Remember when she threatened to shove a ball down that poor lineswoman's throat?

If her argument is that men don't get punished equally when throwing tantrums, I dare you to find a male tennis player who behaves as ludicrously as Serena during those tantrums. I'm thinking of the likes of Kyrgios and Fognini, and I cannot recall anything on the same level of behavior.
This.

There are circumstances in which superstars don't get warnings but I think that's most of the case of them being superstars rather than men. I am thinking of Federer's tirade at the umpire during the USO 2009 Final or even Roddick's multiple tantrums being a complete asshole.

Roddick once said to the AO crowd "Stay in school kids or you'll end up being an umpire" after a call he didn't like. He should have gotten a warning for that. Federer should have also gotten a warning during the USO09 final.
 

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Also, remember Djokovic made a comment on female 'hormones' affecting the way they play. Blown out of proportion as always, but even that exagerrated version seems true for this. Women like Serena, Cibulkova, Konta and so on make such a mess of minor issues which men won't. Don't tell me there is no difference.
 

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Ramos enforced the rules, simple as that.

And although there are times when that doesn't happen that doesn't mean Williams is any less guilty, it would be like 5 people committing the same crime, 1 gets caught and whines that the other 4 haven't been arrested, that still doesn't justify them committing the crime.
 

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It was a total fiasco. "Ramos followed the rule" - only people not using common sense can hide behind that. He "followed" the rule by issuing coaching violation to Serena and didn't do nothing (thanx grammar police) about Osaka being couched from her box. Same as when he issued racket abuse violation to Djokovic and "didn't see" when Nishikori had done the same in WB QF. Can't hide behind following the rules if you're following them selectively. :shrug:
 

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Discussion Starter #15
It was a total fiasco. "Ramos followed the rule" - only people not using common sense can hide behind that. He "followed" the rule by issuing coaching violation to Serena and didn't do nothing about Osaka being couched from her box. Same as when he issued racket abuse violation to Djokovic and "didn't see" when Nishikori had done the same in WB QF. Can't hide behind following the rules if you're following them selectively. <img src="https://www.tennisforum.com/images/smilies/shrug.gif" border="0" alt="" title="shrug" class="inlineimg" />
“Didn’t do nothing about...”

Tells me all I need to know about the validity of your opinion.
 

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ITF statement supports fully Ramos :

“Carlos Ramos is one of the most experienced and respected umpires in tennis. Mr. Ramos’ decisions were in accordance with the relevant rules and were reaffirmed by the U.S. Open’s decision to fine Serena Williams for the three offences,” the ITF said in a statement on Monday.

“It is understandable that this high profile and regrettable incident should provoke debate. At the same time, it is important to remember that Mr. Ramos undertook his duties as an official according to the relevant rule book and acted at all times with professionalism and integrity.”


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tennis-usopen-itf-umpire/itf-defends-u-s-open-chair-umpire-ramos-idUSKCN1LQ28O
 

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Also, remember Djokovic made a comment on female 'hormones' affecting the way they play. Blown out of proportion as always, but even that exagerrated version seems true for this. Women like Serena, Cibulkova, Konta and so on make such a mess of minor issues which men won't. Don't tell me there is no difference.
I do get the general impression that the women behave better though, they certainly get fined less than men. They announce the fines at the end of the tournament, and it is normally dominated by male players iirc.
 

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It was a total fiasco. "Ramos followed the rule" - only people not using common sense can hide behind that. He "followed" the rule by issuing coaching violation to Serena and didn't do nothing about Osaka being couched from her box. Same as when he issued racket abuse violation to Djokovic and "didn't see" when Nishikori had done the same in WB QF. Can't hide behind following the rules if you're following them selectively. :shrug:
peak whataboutism
 
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