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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Man this guy is pissing me of more and more. I just recently found out that Winds of Winter won't come out this year. As a book reader of the series this is getting ridiculous. I'm not one to point the blame finger quick, but it seems more and more this guy either lost it (the plot) or sold out and prefers HBO and the series.

The time between books is just too long, somewhere I may hope he's writing the last two books almost as one. And releases them quickly after each other.

I was truly excited reading this whole series from the beginning. And then also when they where making it into a TV series. But I would never have thought that we're now going to see the story come to an end on TV and not even have the last two books out.

I have not watched the series one bit further than where the books ended. I know they diverse from the books. Already did with material from the actual books in the end. But Martin also gave them material of where the story goes in the ending. That's infuriating for me as a book fan. I already ask everybody not to talk about GOT with me. And now I have the risk kind of knowing how the story is going to end with the books far from that.

Any other people on here having the same irritation about this? Please do not discuss plot here as I haven't read what might be discussed.
 

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His assistant, Ty Franck (co-author with Daniel Abraham as pen name James S.A. Corey) is doing a fantastic job each year with a new Expanse series novel which has been called the Game of Thrones in space by many. It's a very compelling series for any science fiction lover and they also have a show from it with good quality story telling very well adapted from the novels. The TV show will never catch up to the novel story though, as a yearly novel ensures the books will always be 4 years ahead. Seems RR just got lazy, better to have been a hard working assistant that delivers than a famous goon everyone depends upon for the next big story but prefers to wait until his wallet is all full.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
His assistant, Ty Franck (co-author with Daniel Abraham as pen name James S.A. Corey) is doing a fantastic job each year with a new Expanse series novel which has been called the Game of Thrones in space by many. It's a very compelling series for any science fiction lover and they also have a show from it with good quality story telling very well adapted from the novels. The TV show will never catch up to the novel story though, as a yearly novel ensures the books will always be 4 years ahead. Seems RR just got lazy, better to have been a hard working assistant that delivers than a famous goon everyone depends upon for the next big story but prefers to wait until his wallet is all full.
This bit seems sadly true at this point. I hope he will surprise us all but I lost a lot of hope of it coming to a satisfying end.

Will check that other work out. Never heard of it but it sounds interesting.
 

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You are a bit late with your anger. It's been known for years that the TV series was going to finish before the books.

The problem Martin has with finishing the books is that the plots are much more complicated than on TV. The latter has omitted a shitload of details, several actors and quite a few subplots that I have long since forgotten about.

I read once that Martin didn't know how to resolve the problem of Daenerys being the ruler of the city of Meereen, though I forget the details. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that she needed an army to return to Westeros, but didn't want to leave Meereen to the slave holders.

It's also possible that he doesn't enjoy writing the books for the Song of Ice and Fire series as much as he used to.
 

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OP, I share your feelings. I have also enjoyed all the books, started to read them all at the time when the first season of GoT was shown after not finishing them a few years earlier.

After the first season the show also took a nosedive in quality imho and I didn't like a lot of the things they changed starting with the casting. So fortunately it wasn't hard for me at all to stop watching it and I am (largely) unspoiled as to what happened after the book storyline ended.

After so many years however I have kind of given up - no hope anymore to read the finished story. Maybe that's better, since many authors aren't able to deliver a dramatic ending. I want to see the hero suffer and if he survives the ending should only be the start of a potential healing.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
You are a bit late with your anger. It's been known for years that the TV series was going to finish before the books.

The problem Martin has with finishing the books is that the plots are much more complicated than on TV. The latter has omitted a shitload of details, several actors and quite a few subplots that I have long since forgotten about.

I read once that Martin didn't know how to resolve the problem of Daenerys being the ruler of the city of Meereen, though I forget the details. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that she needed an army to return to Westeros, but didn't want to leave Meereen to the slave holders.

It's also possible that he doesn't enjoy writing the books for the Song of Ice and Fire series as much as he used to.
I'm mad already for some time but was convinced for some time that at least we would get winds of winter would be published this year. Now that that isn't going to happen it means that the TV show will finish with two books still not published.
 

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You are a bit late with your anger. It's been known for years that the TV series was going to finish before the books.

The problem Martin has with finishing the books is that the plots are much more complicated than on TV. The latter has omitted a shitload of details, several actors and quite a few subplots that I have long since forgotten about.

I read once that Martin didn't know how to resolve the problem of Daenerys being the ruler of the city of Meereen, though I forget the details. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that she needed an army to return to Westeros, but didn't want to leave Meereen to the slave holders.

It's also possible that he doesn't enjoy writing the books for the Song of Ice and Fire series as much as he used to.
Also known as the Meereneese knot. He wrote 3 different versions of that plot, just to compare them. No wonder it takes him so long.

I have almost given up, I didn't really like season 7 of the show either, I just want to know who ends up on the throne and that will do. I love the intricate plots in the books, but I have no idea how he is going to resolve it all.

I always thought Dany would go mad (based on the books), but who knows?
 

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I always thought Dany would go mad (based on the books), but who knows?
I thought she'd become the main antagonist, but it seemed to me that the show goes for a humans vs. monster narrative. Boring!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
@Jennipeg Then at least I would've something shared with a character:(
@Secondeuce It's possible indeed that it all ran away from him. If I'm correct he intended it to be a trilogy when he began writing. But after the third book there were so many plot lines going on from the wall to Dorne to the shadow lands.
 

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I thought she'd become the main antagonist, but it seemed to me that the show goes for a humans vs. monster narrative. Boring!
TV spoilers ahead:
 
Why boring? She can't rule if the White Walkers zombify everything, it was the only logical choice. In fact, it seems like Cersei Lannister will be the human main antagonist, alongside with the Night King. She's delusional enough to think she can stay out of the fight and then swoop in to deal with the rest.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
@Secondeuce That's what I dread also. He began of course with the White Walker premise. But he waited so long with really introducing them that the books became/are about political strive/war and human flaws in that. Which make the books so great. It would feel like a let down if it all comes down in the end in a united human vs monster ending.
 

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TV spoilers ahead:
 
Why boring? She can't rule if the White Walkers zombify everything, it was the only logical choice. In fact, it seems like Cersei Lannister will be the human main antagonist, alongside with the Night King. She's delusional enough to think she can stay out of the fight and then swoop in to deal with the rest.
Personal preference I guess. Not interested in humans vs. monsters. Obviously the monsters will be beaten and whoever leads the humans will then rule. Or do you favour the odds of the monsters? :)

And Cersei is established as an antagonist since book 1.

Had hoped for the monsters to be some side show or even unite with the Northern forces against the other monsters - the dragons. That's what happens when an author waits so long to finish his work - people will have all kinds of thoughts how they'd like to have the story continued. A lot of them are going to be disappointed.

Happened to me with the HP series as well, absolutely hated the last book.
 

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@Jennipeg Then at least I would've something shared with a character:(
@Secondeuce It's possible indeed that it all ran away from him. If I'm correct he intended it to be a trilogy when he began writing. But after the third book there were so many plot lines going on from the wall to Dorne to the shadow lands.
I feel your pain, I get so annoyed when he releases other books, and I take every sample chapter from Winds of Winter as a personal insult.

Personal preference I guess. Not interested in humans vs. monsters. Obviously the monsters will be beaten and whoever leads the humans will then rule. Or do you favour the odds of the monsters? :)

And Cersei is established as an antagonist since book 1.

Had hoped for the monsters to be some side show or even unite with the Northern forces against the other monsters - the dragons. That's what happens when an author waits so long to finish his work - people will have all kinds of thoughts how they'd like to have the story continued. A lot of them are going to be disappointed.

Happened to me with the HP series as well, absolutely hated the last book.
I love Cersei in a strange way, I read the books after the show started, and I had no idea how truly awful she was. Her chapters in A Feast For Crows were comedy gold. Her and Qyburn are horrible in the best way possible. All the while, she thinks she is emulating her father, she is beyond deluded.

I still have hope that it will be Jon vs Dany at the end, because of the whole R+L = J thing, one of them has to be Azor Ahai surely? I would have them defeat the WW and then scrap for the throne. In my dreams, it seems, I'm still hanging on to the hope that she will go crackers. I like the idea of us watching the rise of the real antagonist, rather than a hero.
 

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Oh man, I haven't put a thought on ASOIAF in quite some time. Actually I think I stopped following GRRM on Facebook a while ago because it was really frustrating for me to read his posts about all of his projects without even mentioning WOW. The way I see it, I don't think he's taking time because of him getting greedy but because he went completely off the road after SOS. Up until that point the story followed a very strong main arc in the form of the War of the Five Kings. It was an easy to follow structure but didn't lack character depth or lore.

If I'm correct, things got out of hand for him from AFFC onwards. There he introduced a ton of new characters and locations putting an abrupt end to the War and radically changing the pace of the story. As a matter of fact AFFC and ADWD are for the most part simultaneous so it basically meant a 2000 page ramification from the original plot. And that's where the delays begun. The original trilogy only saw a couple of years between books but AFFC and ADWD took literally 11 years to release.

Not that AFFC and ADWD are bad books, actually AFFC might just be my favorite (I absolutely love the Greyjoy characters and I'm really looking forward to Victarion's fate). But things got out of hand for the old man and his own work overcame himself. Fortunately he hasn't lost the magic, I don't know if you guys read the WOW chapters he released, but they're awesome. Particularly Aeron's, simply jawdropping.

Well, I guess on the positive side we're having Fire and Blood released this year so that's something.

Also known as the Meereneese knot. He wrote 3 different versions of that plot, just to compare them. No wonder it takes him so long.

I have almost given up, I didn't really like season 7 of the show either, I just want to know who ends up on the throne and that will do. I love the intricate plots in the books, but I have no idea how he is going to resolve it all.

I always thought Dany would go mad (based on the books), but who knows?
If I'm not mistaken I read that he had the same problem with Quentin, as in he introduced the prince and completely lost the plot surrounding this character (therefore his unfortunate and kind of silly destiny).
 

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After the first season the show also took a nosedive in quality imho and I didn't like a lot of the things they changed starting with the casting. So fortunately it wasn't hard for me at all to stop watching it and I am (largely) unspoiled as to what happened after the book storyline ended.
:eek really it took only the first season for you? I felt the writers held fort well till the 4th season, given that original material for 4 seasons came prepared in the first 3 books (including TSoS parts 1, 2).

I thought she'd become the main antagonist, but it seemed to me that the show goes for a humans vs. monster narrative. Boring!
This is something I want to add to a little more.

What made Game Of Thrones (Seasons 1-4/Books 1-3) great was how it tread a very unique path of "realistic adult fantasy" with no easy solutions. Dragons were there, magic was there but they couldn't overpower human fates. Everyone was susceptible including Dany. Power through politics was important. You had to use your brains, which made Tyrion so charming! In the original GRRM universe, the dragons, the magic, the wights all were a part of that accepted logic that respected the rules of that universe. It was as though all these characters and creatures were part of its evolutionary story and therefore prone to extinction. This lack of "a chosen one" stood out for me. This wasn't Harry Potter or Frodo.

For instance I really loved how throughout the first season, the 3 dragon eggs were just carried as souvenir, nobody expected them to hatch. And it was fascinating and poetic to watch Dany emerge with the three dragon "children" from the fire. We had no problems accepting that magic as part of this universe (alongside the politics). Even Dany seemed to be a bit surprised on gaining self-awareness of who she was. And there were those beautiful philosophical meanderings such as with regards to the significance of the red comet (with everyone interpreting it subjectively), or the political and moral causalties leading to the death of Ned Stark.

But over seasons, this subtle mingling of politics and magic got sidelined, the philosophical undercurrent of uncertainty in the universe was entirely derailed. And its hard to believe something that began so powerfully was designed to end in a childish human vs monster conclusion as you point out, from its very inception. What is even worse is the fanboys love it. If lofty existential questions and moral dilemmas were just meant to be fill ups between starting and ending a predictable story, then GRRM clearly missed his mark because it is in fact these earthly parts effortlessly mingling with the elements of fantasy that lent his work a uniqueness, and not the fantasy tropes of zombies and dragons. It seems it would take - even him - an awful lot of courage to kill of Dany or Jon in the books, and there's no way that's going to happen in the TV series or the fanboys will come straight for the necks of D&D.

Such a sad cliche and a disaster Season 8 will be. :bigcry:

Boring!

(Incidentally, for me, it was the TV series that inspired me to go read the books. :nerd: )
 

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Discussion Starter #17
@Secondeuce: "The Walking Dead" comics would be great for you, then, given your clear preferences.
Those comics are amazing. Can recommend them to everybody. So much better than the series. Well Daryl rules there. Although I haven't watched the last two seasons.
Oh man, I haven't put a thought on ASOIAF in quite some time. Actually I think I stopped following GRRM on Facebook a while ago because it was really frustrating for me to read his posts about all of his projects without even mentioning WOW. The way I see it, I don't think he's taking time because of him getting greedy but because he went completely off the road after SOS. Up until that point the story followed a very strong main arc in the form of the War of the Five Kings. It was an easy to follow structure but didn't lack character depth or lore.

If I'm correct, things got out of hand for him from AFFC onwards. There he introduced a ton of new characters and locations putting an abrupt end to the War and radically changing the pace of the story. As a matter of fact AFFC and ADWD are for the most part simultaneous so it basically meant a 2000 page ramification from the original plot. And that's where the delays begun. The original trilogy only saw a couple of years between books but AFFC and ADWD took literally 11 years to release.

Not that AFFC and ADWD are bad books, actually AFFC might just be my favorite (I absolutely love the Greyjoy characters and I'm really looking forward to Victarion's fate). But things got out of hand for the old man and his own work overcame himself. Fortunately he hasn't lost the magic, I don't know if you guys read the WOW chapters he released, but they're awesome. Particularly Aeron's, simply jawdropping.

Well, I guess on the positive side we're having Fire and Blood released this year so that's something.



If I'm not mistaken I read that he had the same problem with Quentin, as in he introduced the prince and completely lost the plot surrounding this character (therefore his unfortunate and kind of silly destiny).
It's good to hear that the released chapters from WOW are of good/high quality. But I just can't read them. Nothing but the whole book will do for me.
:eek really it took only the first season for you? I felt the writers held fort well till the 4th season, given that original material for 4 seasons came prepared in the first 3 books (including TSoS parts 1, 2).



This is something I want to add to a little more.

What made Game Of Thrones (Seasons 1-4/Books 1-3) great was how it tread a very unique path of "realistic adult fantasy" with no easy solutions. Dragons were there, magic was there but they couldn't overpower human fates. Everyone was susceptible including Dany. Power through politics was important. You had to use your brains, which made Tyrion so charming! In the original GRRM universe, the dragons, the magic, the wights all were a part of that accepted logic that respected the rules of that universe. It was as though all these characters and creatures were part of its evolutionary story and therefore prone to extinction. This lack of "a chosen one" stood out for me. This wasn't Harry Potter or Frodo.

For instance I really loved how throughout the first season, the 3 dragon eggs were just carried as souvenir, nobody expected them to hatch. And it was fascinating and poetic to watch Dany emerge with the three dragon "children" from the fire. We had no problems accepting that magic as part of this universe (alongside the politics). Even Dany seemed to be a bit surprised on gaining self-awareness of who she was. And there were those beautiful philosophical meanderings such as with regards to the significance of the red comet (with everyone interpreting it subjectively), or the political and moral causalties leading to the death of Ned Stark.

But over seasons, this subtle mingling of politics and magic got sidelined, the philosophical undercurrent of uncertainty in the universe was entirely derailed. And its hard to believe something that began so powerfully was designed to end in a childish human vs monster conclusion as you point out, from its very inception. What is even worse is the fanboys love it. If lofty existential questions and moral dilemmas were just meant to be fill ups between starting and ending a predictable story, then GRRM clearly missed his mark because it is in fact these earthly parts effortlessly mingling with the elements of fantasy that lent his work a uniqueness, and not the fantasy tropes of zombies and dragons. It seems it would take - even him - an awful lot of courage to kill of Dany or Jon in the books, and there's no way that's going to happen in the TV series or the fanboys will come straight for the necks of D&D.

Such a sad cliche and a disaster Season 8 will be. :bigcry:

Boring!

(Incidentally, for me, it was the TV series that inspired me to go read the books. :nerd: )
Very good analysis. I completely agree with you.
 

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Given up on him a while ago.

I honestly believe he's left too many plot threads open to end it in two books and he now doesn't know what to do anymore. Oh well.
 
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