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Discussion Starter #1
Some rivalries in the open era between ATGs of different generations ( age difference of atleast 4 years) ; ones highlighted in bold are the only ones where the older man has been ahead in H2H

1. Becker vs Sampras Overall H2H= Sampras 12-7
H2H till 1994, when Becker was 27 yrs old= Sampras 6-5
H2H after 1994; Sampras 6-2

2. Sampras vs Edberg:Overall H2H= Sampras 6-8
H2H till 1993 AO ( edberg turned 27 then)= Edberg 4-3
H2H after 1993 AO= Sampras 5-2

3. Sampras vs Lendl 5-3, all their matches played after Lendl turned 30

4. Connors vs Lendl: Lendl 22-13, First 8 matches : 8-0 Connors
Post 1983 ( Connors 31 yrs of age): 17-0 Lendl

6. Edberg vs Lendl: Edberg 14- Lendl 13
Pre Lendl turning 30: Lendl 10- Edberg 6
Post Lendl turning 30: Edberg 8-Lendl 3

7.Becker vs Lendl: Becker 10- Lendl 11

8. Sampras vs Lendl: Sampras 5-3

9. Agassi vs Lendl: Lendl 6-2 ( all Lendl wins coming before Agassi turned 20)

10: Mcenroe vs Lendl: Lendl 21-15; After Mcenroe turned 27: Lendl 10-2;Prior to Mcenroe turning 27: Mcenroe 13-11

11.McEnroe vs Connors: Mcenroe 20-14
First 7 matches: Connors 6-1


12. Borg vs Lendl: 6-2 Borg ( but no matches after 1981)

13: Borg vs Connors:15-8 Borg, with borg winning the last 10 matches, 8 of them after connors was 27, connors winning 6-1 in the first 7 matches
14 : Becker vs Connors: 6-0 becker
15: becker vs McEnroe: 8-2 Becker
16. Mcenroe vs Edberg: 7-6 Mcenroe, all edberg wins coming after McEnroe turned 27
17: Edberg vs Connors: 6-6 with Edberg winning 5-1 in last 6 matches and Connors winning 5-1 in the firts 18. Lendl vs Wilander: 15-7 to Lendl who was the older man, and Lendl getting better in this rivalry with time
19:Mcenroe- Wilander 7-6 Mcenroe
20: Connors- Wilander: 6-0 Wilander
22. Becker vs Agassi: Agassi 10-4, Becker won only first 1 match after 1991
23. Edberg vs Agassi: Agassi 6-3, Edberg winning 0 matches after 1991
24. Federer vs Agassi:Federer 8-3, winning their last 8 matches.

Federer vs Djokovic and Federer vs Nadal everybody knows, so not repeating them here.

Federer vs Djokovic has followed the usual pattern, if anything Federer has given a better account of himself with age as compared to past ATGs

Federer's record vs Nadal however is a bit of a black-mark, though partly salavaged in 2017, in a rather unusual turn of fortunes.

Discuss...
 

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Connors - Nastase seems another textbook example here. Nastase wins their first 8 matches and is 11-1 up at one point, they have a middle period splitting some matches to take the H2H to 15-4, then Connors wins the last 8 to end the H2H at 15-12.

The reasons for which players has the upper hand seem pretty clear. Generally, the younger player overcomes their lack of experience and enters their prime as the older player declines. There are a few examples of the older player holding the overall H2H lead e.g. Roddick over Djokovic but that's generally due to a lack of later matches or Federer being freakish e.g. vs Del Potro, Murray, Berdych
 

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The problem with tennis now is that there have not been any generations with ATG younger than Djokovic produced for almost 2 generations.
Even worse, there are no under 30's with even 1 major title for the first time in history of tennis.

1990-1994 (currently age 29-25) have produced no ATG and likely will not.
1995-1999 (currently age 24-20) have produced no ATG yet, even while the over 30 ATG decline.

It looks like the over 30's will have to heavily decline or retire before a major winner is produced from generations younger than Djokovic.
None of the young players has been good enough to take a major from the Old gang outright.

Who knows when the next ATG will appear? Lendl won his first major rather late at 24, but there were signs he would eventually break through with 4 previous finals from age 21-23.



When Federer had won his 4th major of 20, 5 yr younger Nadal won his 1st of 17. When Nadal had won his 4th major at RG2008, the year younger Djokovic had just won his 1st of 15.
Nadal. In 2011, Roger was already close to 30 when Novak won his 2nd major as he approached 24, while Rafa was winning his 10th at about the age of 25. Thereafter, it was mostly the Djokovic and to a lesser extent Nadal show with some Murray and Wawrinka, lesser greats, chipping in 3 each. Novak won 11 majors between 2011-2016 (age ~24-29), Rafa won 5 (25-30). Roger (30-35) only 1 in 2012.

Of course Big 3 have feasted on this lack of a younger ATG. Roger hit a wall basically at age 29 after winning the AO in 2010, though he managed a Wimbledon in 2012 at age 31 in 2012, Rafa hit a wall after RG and age 28 in 2014, and Novak as the youngest ATG, logically feasted since then as per the thread premise until mid 2016, when he hit a wall at age 29.

But then after that it has been a little strange with the resurgence of each player since 2017, and the big 3 have each won 3 majors a piece, with Novak, the youngest, the most recent resurgence. What should have happened after 2014 when Rafa hit the wall at 28, or in 2016 when Novak hit the wall at 29, was that at least one 5 to 10 year younger player should have risen, someone from age 25 down to 19. None could be found. Almost 3 years later, still none can be found. This is what is allowing for an abnormal increase in each of the big 3's major totals. From now on, one would think if a younger player still fails to rise, it will logically favor Novak the most of the big 3, since he is the youngest. But when a younger player or two does break through, it is more than likely the end of the Big 3. However, we still don't know when that will happen. It didn't happen after any of these players hit the wall. Now they are in the autumn or winter in Federer's case, of their careers and still incredibly, the biggest threat for more major titles.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

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I think the main reason is that new ATGs were usually only for a short time already strong enough to regularly meet their predecessors but not yet strong enough to beat them, while old ATGs often remained close to the top but somewhat below the absolute best for several years after their highest peak. So there is more time available to collect wins against players past their peak than against players before their peak.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
nadal dominated federer from day 1(the trend is reversed though)
Yes, its the only one that doesnt follow the pattern.

Partly because Nadal peaked a bit early --- but, even so this was a black mark on Federer's legacy.

The reversal is partly because we never used to see ATGs play this long at such a high level-- overall Nadal's level off clay has dropped to a more significant extent than Roger's has.

We could see a similar reversal in the Fed- Nole dynamics too ( Wimbledon 2019 may have been a prelude- Nole's level being much lower) except that Federer is already too old for it to last for long enough
 

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Well duh

Older one just needs to win a few as an older player to tilt the narrative on its head

Like RG 2011 SF
 

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What were their rankings like? If the older guy is ranked outside the top 20 and the younger guy is top 5, then obviously the younger, higher-ranked guy is going to win more; it would have less so to do when age and more so with form. If their rankings are similar, then I definitely wouldn't say that it's following a "usual pattern" like with Federer and Djokovic.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
What were their rankings like? If the older guy is ranked outside the top 20 and the younger guy is top 5, then obviously the younger, higher-ranked guy is going to win more; it would have less so to do when age and more so with form. If their rankings are similar, then I definitely wouldn't say that it's following a "usual pattern" like with Federer and Djokovic.
You can do that analysis but would it detract from the conclusion. If anything it only supports it. Besides I doubt we would have too many such matches anyways.
 

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Yes, its the only one that doesnt follow the pattern.

Partly because Nadal peaked a bit early --- but, even so this was a black mark on Federer's legacy.

The reversal is partly because we never used to see ATGs play this long at such a high level-- overall Nadal's level off clay has dropped to a more significant extent than Roger's has.

We could see a similar reversal in the Fed- Nole dynamics too ( Wimbledon 2019 may have been a prelude- Nole's level being much lower) except that Federer is already too old for it to last for long enough

Djoker-Federer matches have usually been very close, from the very start. Nothing much has changed in that regard. In recent years, Djoker has had the mental edge on the big points. That has been the key. The Nadal-Federer dynamic is very different. Federer had a match-up issue, but he addressed the backhand wing when playing Nadal off clay. With Djoker, it's mostly mental for Federer.
 
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