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Sjengster, don't worry about it. I know you wanted to argue your point, but you're talking to a brick wall, and everything you say will just bounce back one way or another.

Tennis Fool, I sincerely suggest you return to the WTAworld, were you can argue about this all day, every day of the year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #142 ·
but it's been known for decades that black people are naturally better athletes than white people.
It's quite disputable. They are naturally better athlets in terms of raw power, but when it is a combination of raw power and something else, it is not that obvious. They are better runner. They are better jumpers. Basketball? Yes. But make it a bit more technical, make some tool other than arms and legs involved - like pole vault instead of high jump, and voila, no people of African descent in business. Ice chockey? Very little. Cycling? Skiing? Tennis? Except for a couple of exceptions, very few of African-xxxxxans. But make it a bit more strategic - like football ( in its original meaning ), and while blacks are a significant part of the game, it is still dominated by people of European descent.

Or, BTW, those who think this conversation is racist rather than scientific, please don't bother answering.
 

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Yes, I can see it doesn't apply equally to all sports, and I know that the Williamses don't just depend on any kind of racial advantage to win their matches - they also have incredible mental strength and talent as well. I suppose I was guilty of generalising about it, but I definitely feel that in tennis that extra athleticism does help them to track down more balls and hit that bit harder than their opponent.

Someone once pointed out that it wasn't the power of the Williams sisters that made them almost invincible, it was their speed and mobility - even when you get them on the defensive, it's still nearly impossible to get the ball past them.
 

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y_s said:
It's quite disputable. They are naturally better athlets in terms of raw power, but when it is a combination of raw power and something else, it is not that obvious. They are better runner. They are better jumpers. Basketball? Yes. But make it a bit more technical, make some tool other than arms and legs involved - like pole vault instead of high jump, and voila, no people of African descent in business. Ice chockey? Very little. Cycling? Skiing? Tennis? Except for a couple of exceptions, very few of African-xxxxxans. But make it a bit more strategic - like football ( in its original meaning ), and while blacks are a significant part of the game, it is still dominated by people of European descent.

Or, BTW, those who think this conversation is racist rather than scientific, please don't bother answering.
Sorry, Y S, I was supporting you on this thread, but the buck stops here.

Its funny how people can make certain assertions and not understand when others find it offensive.

According to your argument, blacks dominate certain sports, ie basketball, running and jumping, because of their natural black "raw power" inherent in their race. Maybe you should look at the economics of this--how much does it cost to play a sport while young? It costs nothing to have a basketball court; a basketball is $12. Voila! Running and other track sports costs no money.

Tennis, golf, ice skating are elite sports that cost in terms of court time, equipment, etc. Those who have traditionally dominated were those who have the finances to afford these sports.

What upsets me is that you guys aren't looking to even see if there are any factors beyond skin color. Or even question if skin color truly is a legitimate factor.

And to write "African-Axxxans" I find is offensive. Write it right. It sounds as if you could even care less to name the people you are talking about in your argument.
 

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Sjengster said:
and there's a limit to how seriously you can take people, myself included, who use emoticons with smily faces and rolling eyes to communicate their ideas.

Wouldn't you agree? ;)
Sjengster


Don't let Tennis Fool
get to you ;) I for one have quite enjoyed your posts and agree with whoever said certain posters just aren't worth your time and energy.
 

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TennisHack said:
Sjengster


Don't let Tennis Fool
get to you ;) I for one have quite enjoyed your posts and agree with whoever said certain posters just aren't worth your time and energy.
Great! Support him. You & Layla.

Ignorance flocks together and I wouldn't want to be a part of anything you three agree on;)

BTW, HI THERE HACKIE:D
 

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Discussion Starter · #147 ·
Yes, but I think that Steffi at her prime was every bit as good as them. Amanda or ASV at their best could probably get even more balls back than Williamses - they however could not get them back with enough power..
 

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Well, exactly - Graf could match them in power, Coetzer and Sanchez Vicario in speed and retrieving ability, but none had the overall package as effectively as the Williamses do now.

I always think it's interesting hearing about those times when Graf in her twilight days played the young, up-and-coming Williams sisters, in particular a hard-fought 3-setter against Venus en route to the 99 Wimbledon final (where of course, irony of ironies, she lost heavily to Lindsay Davenport and everyone assumed that Davenport personified the new generation of hard-hitting players who would take the game to a new level, little realising she would be swept away herself the next year by Venus).

I wonder how Graf in her heyday would fare against them at their best now?
 

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Discussion Starter · #149 ·
Tennis, golf, ice skating are elite sports that cost in terms of court time, equipment, etc. Those who have traditionally dominated were those who have the finances to afford these sports.
We are not talking golf, right? I hate golf..:)

But, where I live ( and I guess in most of USA ), tennis costs next to nothing. Courts are free, rackets are rather expensive, but you can always find a budget solution. And as to finances. Do you think the average population of , say, Russia is more prosperous than average African-American family? I doubt it. I am rather, it's the opposite. Yet, they produce tennis players and hockey players and cyclists and skiers in numbers. Most of Russian, Chinese, Indian immigrants come to USA with few bucks in pocket ( I , personally, had $3k, when I came here, and most of it I would pay in the first very day as a downpayment for apartment ). What financial advantage do they have comparing to African-Americans? Yet, they found a way to play those sports and make their kids play those sports.
 

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Ignorance flocks together and I wouldn't want to be a part of anything you three agree on
Then don't be. And don't post any more insulting and ludicrous suggestions that just because someone dares criticise people who happen to be African-American that automatically categorises them as a racist.
 

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y_s said:
Yes, but I think that Steffi at her prime was every bit as good as them. Amanda or ASV at their best could probably get even more balls back than Williamses - they however could not get them back with enough power..
That's unique of the Williams sisters. Not every black athlete on the planet.

I think of James Blake, Y. Noah, Mal Washington, Zina Garrison, Lori McNeil. These athletes had power, sure, but not overwhelming, unbeatable, power.

Plus, Hingis was able to curb the Williams power with her chess game. It took both sisters to up stategy in order for them to become champions.

If you look at Seles, Capriati, Lindsay, Amelie, and Kim--these are white girls with tremendous power.

I get the feeling that if they were black, posters would say, "yeah, they are great--but look at their race. It gives them an edge."
 

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Discussion Starter · #152 ·
I wonder how Graf in her heyday would fare against them at their best now?
I doubt that Steffi would have been really dominated by ANY player big time. And at her best she had as much speed as Williamses. In fact, it is a known fact that she was so fast, that she could have been a part of German track and field team.

You know - coincidental or not - Williamses could not make any real breakthrough - for as long as Graf was active. I do not know how to even explain it. I mean, 1997 US Open, Venus makes final, Venus first Slam breakthrough. No Graf. 1998, Lipton, first big tournament breakthrough by Venus. No Graf. 1999 US Open, first Grand Slam title by Williams. Graf has already retired. And after that it was all Williams. Right after Graf retired. Could be coincidence. Cound be not.
 

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I keep saying, race isn't the only determining factor in the Williamses' success. I just think it helps to enhance the superb athletic qualities they already possess. Obviously you have to be a professional athlete who works hard and is fit to reach that kind of level, I'm not suggesting that black people who have never so much as looked at a sporting venue have the same ability as them, but it does provide an extra edge.
 

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y_s said:
We are not talking golf, right? I hate golf..:)

But, where I live ( and I guess in most of USA ), tennis costs next to nothing. Courts are free, rackets are rather expensive, but you can always find a budget solution.
Courts are free, but where are they? I remember once during a USO, when John McEnroe went on a TV quest, asking why more kids weren't playing tennis? He came up to this one 7-year old black boy and asked him if he played tennis. The kid said no. He asked why. The kid said because there wasn't a court in his neighborhood.

Sorry, but things would be much different if tennis courts were as numerous as basketball courts.

I also understand why the masses in other countries play soccer (futbol). Its cheap and there are plenty of soccer fields in poorer areas. You don't have this in the US. Thus, we don't play soccer as a national pastime.
 

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Hmm, interesting thoughts about Graf fading from the scene as the Williamses took over. Of course, in 97 it was Hingis getting the three-quarter Slam and becoming the youngest world no. 1 that was the big story - indeed it was she who arrogantly declared that "the Graf era is over", then lost to her in the 99 Roland Garros final, preventing her from getting all four Slams.

When Hingis was in her prime, she too managed to beat the Williamses with some regularity, but there are now too many players who can take advantage of the lack of power in her game. It just shows how quickly dominance can change hands at the top of the women's game as new people come along and topple the old order - although somehow I don't think that's happening with the Williams sisters unless they choose to quit tennis soon...
 

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y_s said:
We are not talking golf, right? I hate golf..:)

Do you think the average population of , say, Russia is more prosperous than average African-American family? I doubt it. I am rather, it's the opposite. Yet, they produce tennis players and hockey players and cyclists and skiers in numbers. Most of Russian, Chinese, Indian immigrants come to USA with few bucks in pocket ( I , personally, had $3k, when I came here, and most of it I would pay in the first very day as a downpayment for apartment ). What financial advantage do they have comparing to African-Americans? Yet, they found a way to play those sports and make their kids play those sports.
When you compare Russia and China to USA, you are talking about two different cultural and economic histories.

Russians and Chinese athletes grew up under a communist system where many of these sports were financed by the government. Even the young Russians now first grew up under a communist system.

We'll see how well Russia continues to produce athletes in the next generation. Maybe Boiled Egg can shed some light on this...
 
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