[Dissident]

Roland Garros 1997

Gustavo Kuerten, born in Oct 1976, was 20 years old then. Had never won a title on atp tour.

1st round - bt Slava Dosedel 0, 5 and 1
2nd round - bt Jonas Bjorkman 64 62 46 75
3rd round - bt Thomas Muster 67(3) 61 63 36 64
4th round - bt Andrei Medvedev 57 61 62 16 75
Quarterfinals - bt Yevgeny Kafelnikov 62 57 26 60 64
Semifinals - bt Filip Dewulf 61 36 61 76(4)
Finals - bt Sergi Bruguera 3, 4 and 2


Australian Open 2003

Andy Roddick, born in August 1982, is 20 years old. Had won 5 atp tour titles.

1st round - bt Zeljko Krajan 67 62 76 63
2nd round - bt Adrian Voinea 2, 2 and 2
3rd round - bt Fernando Vicente 2, 3 and 2
4th round - bt Mikhail Youzhny 67(4) 36 75 63 62
Quarterfinals - bt Younes El Aynaoui 46 76(5) 46 64 21-19
Semifinals - LOST to Rainer Schuettler 57 62 36 36

The campaigns are similar and mean a lot. Guga used the wins to catapult his confidence and win on the mental part of each match. I remember seeing him eat his opponents, one by one. He was tired, yes, but his will to win and his confidence were many times bigger than whatever.
Roddick had to HUGE 5 set wins. And then ran out of gas and confidence.
Really weird how things work opposite.

Thats the way some of the young players are reacting now. (I dont include Ferrero on this package. He actually won some big things and is accomplishing new steps on a whole different rhythm than the others; dont include Federer because he rarely gives himself a shot at a big win since Sampras at Wimbledon)
If they dont open their eyes and the next ones come faster than them, this period of tennis players can pass unnoticed.
We will remember Guga (who is older), Ferrero and maybe Federer if he starts winning big.

 

[Dissident]

I only use Guga as an example because of two reasons:

1. He is my fave player and the one I´ve been following since a long time, so I know his career better
2. He is probably the last young guy to win big except for Hewitt.

Also, I should have included Hewitt on my memorable men list. Forgot. Also, maybe Safin will stay there for his US Open title.

 

[Sjengster]

I don't deny your point - indeed, the very fact that Kuerten reached a Slam final at age 20, won it and has since repeated the feat twice shows why he will probably be regarded in history as a greater player than Roddick in many departments.

However, it is just possible that in that semi-final Schuettler simply played better against his opponent than Dewulf did against his back in 97 - after all, they were both first-time semi-finalists in a Grand Slam. Also, bear in mind Roddick wasn't just tired, he had actually sustained a legitimate wrist injury which may have a lot to do with the energy he uses up in matches, but also with the demanding nature of the surface - clay is after all much easier on the body, and Kuerten is built for muscular endurance where Roddick is built for explosive strength.

I don't deny that Roddick missed an opportunity, but no matter how great your initial success there is always the next opponent to consider - and I don't think his particular failing should extend to any of the other New Balls, practically all of whom seem to be on the list of people you would exempt from the 'failed generation' of young players.

 

[Tennis Fool]

Rafter didn't win his first slam untill he was 24, and he seems to have done okay for himself.

Well, Rafter was under the "26 rule" that TBE stated.

It will be verrrry interesting to see who does what by that age (not too many Slams in the future, mind you).

Becca, I don't understand quite where you are coming from in this argument.

You seem to play Devil's advocate just for the joy of it.

You sincerely believe Ferrero, et al will eventually win a Slam, no matter what their age?

Or do you not really care who wins, just long as its a different player, as is the consensus?

Just curious.

 

[ys]

You sincerely believe Ferrero, et al will eventually win a Slam, no matter what their age?

Of course she believes, otherwise what kind of fan would she be.. But, keep in mind, better and more talented, than Ferrero, clay players used to end up without RG crown just because of not doing it at the right time..

 

[Tennis Fool]

And as for Tennis fool's admittance of being a Williams fan - please! You richly deserve your own username.

HA! If you attack my User Name with that lame put-down, that really says more about you than me.

Further, resorting to ad hominem attacks really shows your lack of argument.

I rather stick to the facts:

If you don't appreciate what the world's No. 1 and 2 WTA players have done, even if don't really like their game, I wonder if *you* really are a tennis fan.

Serena's ability to win on all surfaces, something only 5 women in the history of tennis have been able to do, and have the mental fortitude to come back from 1/5 in the last set in her semifinal victory--is just extraordinary.

ANY real tennis fan can appreciate that.

 

[Tennis Fool]

I really hate the suggestion that Johansson and Costa should be called journeymen just because they're not Top 10

Again, Sjenster, attack me, but I will stick to stripping your argument.

The ATP consensus is that these two are journeyman. NOT because they are out of the Top 10, but they were not picked as the talented young juniors that would have the world watching to see how far their stars would rise.

If you read about tennis at all, you will see that they are called "journeymen" or "average" or "very able" players by coaches, other players, sports writers--heck, even themselves!

NBs are those who displayed exceptional talent early, a la Hewitt and Safin.

The player people are talking about now is Richard Gasquet. He just won the junior FO and UO and has be targeted as someone to watch in the new few years (his time is not yet, but soon).

 

[Tennis Fool]

Frankly, in the kind of competitive and changing environment on the men's tour, it's arrogant to expect that the new crop of young Slam favourites should instantly snap into action and start asserting their dominance, because they're in a very competitive field. I can only hope that my favourites win a Slam in the future, not expect them to start dominating everyone in sight.

Fine.

That's all you needed to say.

 

[Tennis Fool]

And please lay off criticising them for their performances at this year's AO. Hewitt lost to a man who would have beaten anyone in the world with a serving day like he had, Federer lost in five sets to a man who's he never beaten who has beaten him in his home tournament, Safin was hampered with a wrist injury from the start that forced his withdrawal, and Roddick... well, how on earth can you complain about him losing his semi after a five-hour match won 21-19 in the fifth? Almost anyone out there would be tired, and as he pointed out afterwards Schuettler's the last guy you'd want to face when you're not 100%. The only one who could be criticised for his performance is Ferrero, and even he lost to a 'journeyman' who is a tour veteran and an established threat at the Aussie Open.

Who are you talking to here?

As for me, I already did a rating of the NBs, not only on their performance at AO, but over their performance the last couple of years.

Hewitt is the most consistant NB and did OK at the Aussie.
Marat got injured. Can't help that.
Federer has a mental block against Nablandian. One of his many mental blocks.
Roddick had his best performance.

 

[Chloe le Bopper]

You sincerely believe Ferrero, et al will eventually win a Slam, no matter what their age?

Where have I said that I believe that Ferrero, Federer, Safin, et al will win slams, no matter what their age? If I've said this, I've love a quote, because I don't seem to recall saying it.

In fact, I have actually said many times that I'm not certain that Ferrero imparticular, ever win. So please, avoid putting words in my mouth

My point, which I thought was very clear, was that you people are crapping with dissapointment over guys who are 21, 22, 23 years old, wondering where their 4 slams are or whatever.

You seem to talk as if none of them are going to do anything - and perhaps they won't, I certaintly can't provide evidence of what will happen over the next 12 grand slams.

However, I fail to see what they have done to deserve the negative attitudes and be refered to as "generation N". If you guys are longing for the days of dominant male players, then rewind a few years and Sampras will give you all you can get...

As for Rafter, I brought him up because YS commented on the fact that not many males win slams after age 22 - I think that was the age he used. Anyhow - I was quite clearly responding to YS and not TBE, in which TBE's under 26 factor was totally irrelevant to my point.

Or do you not really care who wins, just long as its a different player, as is the consensus?

I've never said that I want a different player to win every slam. I have absolutely no idea where you could have came up with this idea.

I merely am happy with whatever is given to me. I like watching tennis. No amount of me pissing and moaning about the "good old days", is going to change a single thing. I realize this, and prefer to focus on what is good about the tour.

As for me caring who wins - of course I care who wins some slams. Frankly I couldn't give a crock pot about who wins Wimbledon most of the time, but I have my favourites just like everybody else.

 

[Tennis Fool]

I dont think that long match is an excuse alone for Roddicks failure. As I said, long matches happened before, and the level of confidence he should have got from that match would NEED to be at least 100 times bigger than his fatigue.
As I said, Guga did beat Russell in a big match that lasted (what?) 4 hours and something, and yet managed to win THREE more matches against top level opponents at 24 years-old or so.
It seems totally illogical to me why Roddick as a young guy full of energy as he is can run out of steam ALL THE TIME once he has a big match.

Could Roddick be a victim of his own energy?

Hewitt used to have problems closing out matches because he would get riled up and expend so much energy earlier in the match.

Maybe Roddick needs to calm down a little?

 

[Tennis Fool]

I also need to point out that the Williams sisters dominance is shit because they are like a "duo package". Buy one get two.

That's called a rivalry. Just happens that they are sisters (although only one is winning the Slams).

Don't blame the Sisters for winning all the time. Blame the other players who refuse to step up and take on the challenge.

 

[Chloe le Bopper]

SO your newballs scorecard was based on the Australian Open AND the past couple years?

Surely that explains Guga, Ferrero and Blake all getting the same grade, and being graded lower than Youhzny (ofcourse I assume Mikhail got the nod for his Davis Cup heroics. Lest we forget a certain DC final 2000 deciding rubber match between another set of 19-20 year olds...)

 

[Chloe le Bopper]

The sisters do not have a rivalry.

Rivals do not beat other rivals 5 times in a row.

Kim and Serena have a better rivalry than Venus and Serena, which doesn't say much.


How's this for going off topic?

 

[Tennis Fool]

Where have I said that I believe that Ferrero, Federer, Safin, et al will win slams, no matter what their age? If I've said this, I've love a quote, because I don't seem to recall saying it.

In fact, I have actually said many times that I'm not certain that Ferrero imparticular, ever win. So please, avoid putting words in my mouth

My point, which I thought was very clear, was that you people are crapping with dissapointment over guys who are 21, 22, 23 years old, wondering where their 4 slams are or whatever.

You seem to talk as if none of them are going to do anything - and perhaps they won't, I certaintly can't provide evidence of what will happen over the next 12 grand slams.

However, I fail to see what they have done to deserve the negative attitudes and be refered to as "generation N". If you guys are longing for the days of dominant male players, then rewind a few years and Sampras will give you all you can get...

As for Rafter, I brought him up because YS commented on the fact that not many males win slams after age 22 - I think that was the age he used. Anyhow - I was quite clearly responding to YS and not TBE, in which TBE's under 26 factor was totally irrelevant to my point.




I've never said that I want a different player to win every slam. I have absolutely no idea where you could have came up with this idea.

I merely am happy with whatever is given to me. I like watching tennis. No amount of me pissing and moaning about the "good old days", is going to change a single thing. I realize this, and prefer to focus on what is good about the tour.

As for me caring who wins - of course I care who wins some slams. Frankly I couldn't give a crock pot about who wins Wimbledon most of the time, but I have my favourites just like everybody else.

D*mn Becca!

Can't you just answer a d*mn question???

What do you feel? You can win at any time? Just say so, and that will be your answer, right?

This answering a question with a question, or "I thought I was very clear and I don't understand why you guys are crapping on the young players..." isn't an answer.

Also, TBE said age 26, not 22.

 

[Tennis Fool]

SO your newballs scorecard was based on the Australian Open AND the past couple years?

Surely that explains Guga, Ferrero and Blake all getting the same grade, and being graded lower than Youhzny (ofcourse I assume Mikhail got the nod for his Davis Cup heroics. Lest we forget a certain DC final 2000 deciding rubber match between another set of 19-20 year olds...)

I also said it was very unscientific.

If you don't like my scorecard, come up with your own.

 

[Tennis Fool]

The sisters do not have a rivalry.

Rivals do not beat other rivals 5 times in a row.

Kim and Serena have a better rivalry than Venus and Serena, which doesn't say much.


How's this for going off topic?

They are rivals. They beat up on the field to get to the finals.
Of course, I admit, that Venus has the mental roadblock that Serena once had.

Kim and Serena have had good matches. I wouldn't call them rivals until I see them play in some GS finals.

Kim needs to stop blowing leads. That 5/1 lead is the second time in a Slam she's blown a lead to Serena, who eventually went on to win the whole thing. (This also happened in the 99 US Open).

 

[Gonzo Hates Me!]

Doesn't it look like we are having a generation of N(obodies), N(on-greats) these days?

Overhyped new balls do not perform as expected. The only one of them who more or less met expectation is Hewitt, but it looks like he is heading into some crisis as well. Safin can't get back on track. Ferrero looked promising at some Slams , but always finds the right time for a meltdown. Federer's mind and game is elsewhere. Sampras and Agassi play much less impressive tennis than they played 2-3 years ago, yet they won last two Slams. It starts more and more looking like this generation simply doesn't want. Previously, at any given time there were at least 3-4 active players who could be considered one of greats. But with Courier and Boris retired, we are left with two remaining dynosaurs and pretty much nobody after them. It is not their great form that keeps Agassi and Sampras from retiring. It's just that the form of whole tour is degrading quicker than the game of Andre and Pete is degrading with age. After they retire we could easily be looking into one-slam-wonder-fest for few more years.

Who could stop that? I hate to say that, but the only one from contemporary youngs that seems to be able to combine a tennis talent, physical power and mental determination to become a great player could be Roddick.

I agree. I think the players right now, whether/even if they prevail in the end and live up to their rankings, are not impressive at the moment which doesn't make things exciting for me. Not enough rivalries, anticipated late draw match-ups, that sort... I personally do like when there are dominating players. That's why I never liked Agassi for so long, out of bitterness, because he was such a dominating dude when he made his comeback and he beat the shit out of a lot of my favs, hahaha! But, when they get upset by a fav of mine, it's an extra special win and that's why I am *personally* not for all this depth. MEH! Personally, I just find it very boring. And it's always beautiful to support someone from anonymity and watch them rise and make something of themself and become really prominent, and I am so sad that Roger is not doing that. Kim is though, and Guga will be back to perfection soon, so it's all good!

 

[Tennis Fool]

Re: Re: Generation N?

I agree.

Mrs. Guga--warning! That opinion is not popular on this board.

Ouch! Who threw that can???

 

[Gonzo Hates Me!]

LOL! The only popular opionion I ever had on this board was when I made a thread to have a "girl talk" and gush about our favorite players and everyone actually joined with me. Hahaha!!! So, ah, no worries. I've grown accustomed. But cheers mate!! Thanks for your concern, but it's all good though, LOL!