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Discussion Starter #41 (Edited)
Ferrero & Acasuso weren't included to the list :eek:

Funny no-one noticed lack of the former No. 1 :D I've moved Borg & Connors to 'Defenders' to make a place for Ferrero & Acasuso in 'N'Owners'
 

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Re: Game-styles: 185 players (2 categories, 8 groups)

I probably have seen only a few hard-worked posts like yours since I joined this forum. Great work, I hope people from this forum appreciates it very much despite the fact that it can be some controversies between between different opinions about players game-styles. I will look at your post deeply when I have time.

Thank you very much :worship:
I agree. A hard-worked post. And this is always a great thing.
 

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Great thread :yeah:
 

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Re: Game-styles: 185 players (2 categories, 8 groups)

Due to his exceptional patience and inclination to play half-lobs during baseline rallies.

I think with bigger insight we can create more groups (16?), I know that O.Rochus may look ridiculously in one group with Anderson, Janowicz & Verkerk :shrug:

I've invented the picture today and took me many hours to make it. If I had better graphic tools, I would prepare something more ambitious (mathematical sets infiltrating themselves)
I agree that he was patient and used half-lobs but you say in the description of defenders: "their main purpose is to get points operating on the baseline or behind it because they aren't neither natural volleyers nor powerful servers" - Clement for sure had a great volley skills and was amazing in doubles, also for his small height he had a very powerful serve. He also liked to play offensively and could sometimes produce an unexpected return winner, for example. I think if Rochus is N'Owner, Clement should definitely be there.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Re: Game-styles: 185 players (2 categories, 8 groups)

I agree that he was patient and used half-lobs but you say in the description of defenders: "their main purpose is to get points operating on the baseline or behind it because they aren't neither natural volleyers nor powerful servers" - Clement for sure had a great volley skills and was amazing in doubles, also for his small height he had a very powerful serve. He also liked to play offensively and could sometimes produce an unexpected return winner, for example. I think if Rochus is N'Owner, Clement should definitely be there.
In the opening post I wrote "It's not statistical analysis, rather intuitive choices", I hadn't time to deliberate about 190 players. Perhaps after watching three important Clement's matches in a row on three different surfaces I'd place him in other picture as a N'Owner/Defender...
 

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Re: Game-styles: 185 players (2 categories, 8 groups)

In the opening post I wrote "It's not statistical analysis, rather intuitive choices", I hadn't time to deliberate about 190 players. Perhaps after watching three important Clement's matches in a row on three different surfaces I'd place him in other picture as a N'Owner/Defender...
I'm sorry.
Not complaining. Just trying to help.
You've really done an amazing job! :worship:
 

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Re: Game-styles: 185 players (2 categories, 8 groups)

When Murray and Djokovic play their best it's 6-4 7-5 6-4 (Wimbly final)
On grass, maybe... Andy is better and more natural grass court player than Novak.
On hc and on clay (especially) it's different story.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Re: Game-styles: 185 players (2 categories, 8 groups)

I'm sorry.
Not complaining. Just trying to help.
You've really done an amazing job! :worship:
No need to apologize :) Players become more & more complex in terms of their game-styles with passing years which is understandable because they can follow more and more different great players. I was thinking about Clement after your previous post because I agree that he was a good volleyer and used to attack the net quite often (especially on grass and indoors), being a better server than O.Rochus, and here is what I've figured out in reference to this post...

Let's say there are 3 different areas on the court.

While Forwarders & Deceivers get the most points in areas 3 & 2, N'Owners in 2, I'd say Clement in areas 3 & 1, which makes him someone in between Forwarders & Defenders.
As I've earlier mentioned, IMO the number of styles is doubling every two decades, so to describe years 2000-2020 quite properly, we'll need 16 different styles. I put Janowicz to the N'Owners, but with his bizarre mix of atomic serves and dropshots he is actually someone between Atomer & Defender which could be incomprehensible some 20 years ago when players using so many dropshots were automatically associated with clay-courts and moon-balling!

 

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I just saw this thread, Voo, and one name stuck me as fitting very well a category where you didn't put him : Guy Forget.

I think he very much fits the "deceivers"' category as you described it :

Deceivers: tricky group - they may surprise you with different tools than you expected from them; natural baseliners who developed serve-and-volley tactics either due to great serve (Ivanisevic) or successful career in doubles (Kubot); Deceivers are players with double-handed backhand, so obviously they rarely play cheap-and-charge and are more prone to make mistakes with backhand volleys/overheads than other three groups of S&V's; if someone plays double-handed BH and serve-and-volley it doesn't mean he is a deceiver (Woodforde)
When Forget started in the 80s, he had a strong serve and forehand and he quite liked clay even if it was not his best surface.

He developed his volley through doubles (he always was a very good doubles player because he had a very good serve and return) but it always was a strange shot imo, esp. his backhand volley.

And he went more to the net when his serve improved a lot in 1991 thanks to his new racket, developed by Lacoste (the "Equijet" with a larger frame).

The only thing which doesn't fit the "deceivers'" category is that he had a one-handed backhand but to say the truth, I would very well have imagined him with a 2HBH, I think he didn't learn it in that time because it was not fashionable in France, but it would have fit him better imo, his backhand never was very good.

I think the other guys you put in the "balancers"' category had a much more natural and better volley than Forget.
 

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Santoro should be in the Santoro group;)

few objections that i have not time to mention right now but all and all good and interesting effort...:wavey:
 

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I do wonder whether this is the last generation of tennis players where serve-and-volley is their primary style. Lopez, Stepanek, Llodra, Kubot, Brown, Muller, Ram, and Mahut are all in their 30s now and there's no-one really coming up now using this technique. Groth and Stakhovsky employ serve-and-volley regularly and I can't think of many others.

I wonder whether serve-volleyers will dies out completely or if they will become like the knuckleballers in baseball, just one or two using it in the major leagues at any one time just because it's rare enough for someone good to have success just from being a bit different from everyone else around and messing up their rhythm...
 

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Re: Game-styles: 185 players (2 categories, 8 groups)

No need to apologize :) Players become more & more complex in terms of their game-styles with passing years which is understandable because they can follow more and more different great players. I was thinking about Clement after your previous post because I agree that he was a good volleyer and used to attack the net quite often (especially on grass and indoors), being a better server than O.Rochus, and here is what I've figured out in reference to this post...

Let's say there are 3 different areas on the court.

While Forwarders & Deceivers get the most points in areas 3 & 2, N'Owners in 2, I'd say Clement in areas 3 & 1, which makes him someone in between Forwarders & Defenders.
As I've earlier mentioned, IMO the number of styles is doubling every two decades, so to describe years 2000-2020 quite properly, we'll need 16 different styles. I put Janowicz to the N'Owners, but with his bizarre mix of atomic serves and dropshots he is actually someone between Atomer & Defender which could be incomprehensible some 20 years ago when players using so many dropshots were automatically associated with clay-courts and moon-balling!

This is awesome work!

Perhaps I missed it, but where does the name "N'Owners" come from?
 

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It would be great if we had those 'stains on the court' graphic stats about players positions available to us, they pop-up here and there in slams sometimes. Maybe in a few years this infos will be available with one click.
 
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