Mens Tennis Forums banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
882 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Tiebreakers are perhaps the highest pressure moments within sets, and grandslam finals are probably the most significant matches in the sport. As a result, playing tiebreakers in grandslam finals probably constitute one of the highest pressure situations in tennis. Perhaps a little known stat is Federer's phenomenal record in these situations. In grand slam final tiebreakers, Roger has an impressive winning record of:

21-9 (70% wins, which is even better than his all-time record success rate in tiebreakers overall)

His record is Slam final tiebreakers is also great against the big 3 specifically: 9-6 (60% win rate)

For reference, here are Nadal and Djokovic's tiebreak records in this position:

Nadal: 6-6 overall (50% wins) and 6-5 vs the big 3 (54% wins)
Djokovic: 7-9 overall (44% wins) and 2-6 against the big 3 (25% wins)

It is interesting how some champions seem to thrive under certain pressure situations and crumble under others. Federer has always had a tremendous record in tiebreaks in general, for example, but until recently he typically struggled in fifth setters which also demand great mental strength. For Djokovic, it's the precise opposite. It's almost as if there are different kinds of 'clutchness' for different situations. Thoughts?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,174 Posts
Isn't it because he has good serve?
But both guys serve and return the same amount in a tiebraker. The tiebreak should be a microcosm of the whole match. Because a match also involves alternative service and return games.

If your "better" serve allows you to win a tiebreak. It should allow allow you, on average, a better chance to win the match.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,513 Posts
But both guys serve and return the same amount in a tiebraker. The tiebreak should be a microcosm of the whole match. Because a match also involves alternative service and return games.

If your "better" serve allows you to win a tiebreak. It should allow allow you, on average, a better chance to win the match.
Yes, better chances in a TB and better chances in a match, to different degrees though. The ability to deliver a few good serves in a row is definitely much more appreciated in a TB than in a regular game.
 

·
|
Joined
·
14,278 Posts
Federer gets more practice at tie-breakers because he's an often poor returner (when compared to Nadal/Djokovic).
When Nadal or Djokovic gets to 6-6 they feel like they failed (why couldn't I get the break?).
Whereas its considered normal for Federer to cruise through a set without breaking the opponent, so his state of mind is a lot more confident when he gets to 6-6 (business as usual).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
335 Posts
Federer gets more practice at tie-breakers because he's an often poor returner (when compared to Nadal/Djokovic).
When Nadal or Djokovic gets to 6-6 they feel like they failed (why couldn't I get the break?).
Whereas its considered normal for Federer to cruise through a set without breaking the opponent, so his state of mind is a lot more confident when he gets to 6-6 (business as usual).
Not sure if serious or just delusional tard.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
127 Posts
Tennis' scoring system is flawed outside of TB's.

Federer is just better than most players at winning points. TBs are just that; points, not games.

Notice that out of the Big4, Federer lost the most matches in which he won MORE points than the winner. Why is that? Bc of tennis' 'flawed' scoring system. However, TBs don't have this problem.

Example of a 1-set match:
If Federer wins all his service games at love, and his opponent wins all his service games through 1-duece each. Then his opponent proceeded to win the TBs 7-5, thus winning this 1-set match. BUT, the points total is, Federer: 47 (24+18+5), Opponent: 37 (30+7). If this 1-set match was decided by # of points won, the result would be flipped. This is why tennis' scoring system is flawed.

Again, TBs are decided by # of points won, and Federer is one of the best at winning points. Thus he wins more TBs than most.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,680 Posts
Tennis' scoring system is flawed outside of TB's.

Federer is just better than most players at winning points. TBs are just that; points, not games.

Notice that out of the Big4, Federer lost the most matches in which he won MORE points than the winner. Why is that? Bc of tennis' 'flawed' scoring system. However, TBs don't have this problem.

Example of a 1-set match:
If Federer wins all his service games at love, and his opponent wins all his service games through 1-duece each. Then his opponent proceeded to win the TBs 7-5, thus winning this 1-set match. BUT, the points total is, Federer: 47 (24+18+5), Opponent: 37 (30+7). If this 1-set match was decided by # of points won, the result would be flipped. This is why tennis' scoring system is flawed.

Again, TBs are decided by # of points won, and Federer is one of the best at winning points. Thus he wins more TBs than most.
Not all the regular points are played with the same intensity, only the big points.

Tie-breaks are always played with the max intensity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
127 Posts
Not all the regular points are played with the same intensity, only the big points.

Tie-breaks are always played with the max intensity.
True, but it's neither here nor there.

Karlovic has a crazy good serve, but his return is terrible in comparison. Schwartzman's serve is average, but his return is great. Counting the # of points won, it balances out between the 2 players.

However, it's not hard to see that Federer's serve is better than most, and his return is top shelf too. Add his serve+return together, and Federer simply wins more points than his opponents, more often, Big4 or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,513 Posts
True, but it's neither here nor there.

Karlovic has a crazy good serve, but his return is terrible in comparison. Schwartzman's serve is average, but his return is great. Counting the # of points won, it balances out between the 2 players.

However, it's not hard to see that Federer's serve is better than most, and his return is top shelf too. Add his serve+return together, and Federer simply wins more points than his opponents, more often, Big4 or not.
Career total points won %. (from ultimatetennisstatistics)

1 ESP ESP Rafael Nadal Active 54.41%
2 SRB SRB Novak Djokovic Active 54.30%
3 SUI SUI Roger Federer Active 54.15%
4 USA USA Pete Sampras 53.51%
5 USA USA Andre Agassi 53.35%
6 GBR GBR Andy Murray Active 53.30%
7 USA USA Andy Roddick 53.04%
8 SWE SWE Stefan Edberg 52.79%
9 USA USA Jim Courier 52.55%
10 NED NED Richard Krajicek 52.53%
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,680 Posts
True, but it's neither here nor there.

Karlovic has a crazy good serve, but his return is terrible in comparison. Schwartzman's serve is average, but his return is great. Counting the # of points won, it balances out between the 2 players.

However, it's not hard to see that Federer's serve is better than most, and his return is top shelf too. Add his serve+return together, and Federer simply wins more points than his opponents, more often, Big4 or not.
Nadal,Djokovic and Murray win more return games than Federer.
Nadal is the best in history at return games and 2º serve points won.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
10,271 Posts
Federer gets more practice at tie-breakers because he's an often poor returner (when compared to Nadal/Djokovic).
When Nadal or Djokovic gets to 6-6 they feel like they failed (why couldn't I get the break?).

Whereas its considered normal for Federer to cruise through a set without breaking the opponent, so his state of mind is a lot more confident when he gets to 6-6 (business as usual).
Why did MTF take away my :SPIT: emoticon
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
127 Posts
Career total points won %. (from ultimatetennisstatistics)

1 ESP ESP Rafael Nadal Active 54.41%
2 SRB SRB Novak Djokovic Active 54.30%
3 SUI SUI Roger Federer Active 54.15%
4 USA USA Pete Sampras 53.51%
5 USA USA Andre Agassi 53.35%
6 GBR GBR Andy Murray Active 53.30%
7 USA USA Andy Roddick 53.04%
8 SWE SWE Stefan Edberg 52.79%
9 USA USA Jim Courier 52.55%
10 NED NED Richard Krajicek 52.53%
Interesting. But this only tells us 'total' points won without context of the matches, nor matchups considerations. We can't conclude too much from it bc they are total points in matches against different opponents over hundreds of matches. Matchups dictate how much more points in any given match you win by. Winning by 1 more point is winning, winning by 10 points is also winning.

For example: Take 2 opponents of similar caliber, in which one is a bad matchup and one is a good matchup, and then you win both matches. However, each of the 2 wins will yield different amounts of points won bc of matchups.

Then there is clay, HC, grass, indoors. Too many variables. If say the ATP/ITF can agree on a 'number' in which a set is won, THEN we can decide who would win which match. We don't have this luxury bc the scoring-system is what it is, flawed as it may be.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,583 Posts
Overall points won

1 ESP ESP Rafael Nadal Active 54.41%
2 SRB SRB Novak Djokovic Active 54.30%
3 SUI SUI Roger Federer Active 54.15%
4 USA USA Pete Sampras 53.51%
5 USA USA Andre Agassi 53.35%

Hard points won

1 SRB SRB Novak Djokovic Active 54.58%
2 SUI SUI Roger Federer Active 54.38%
3 USA USA Pete Sampras 53.91%
4 USA USA Andre Agassi 53.83%
5 GBR GBR Andy Murray Active 53.46%

Grass points won

1 USA USA Pete Sampras 54.64%
2 SUI SUI Roger Federer Active 54.60%
3 GBR GBR Andy Murray Active 53.83%
4 SRB SRB Novak Djokovic Active 53.80%
5 NED NED Richard Krajicek 53.70%

Clay points won

1 ESP ESP Rafael Nadal Active 56.23%
2 SRB SRB Novak Djokovic Active 53.98%
3 SUI SUI Roger Federer Active 53.49%
4 AUT AUT Thomas Muster 53.41%
5 USA USA Jim Courier 53.13%
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36,855 Posts
You don't think Federer gets more practice at tie-breakers than Nadal?
Federer played 30 tie-breakers in 2017, from 57 matches.
Nadal played 22 tie-breakers in 2017, from 78 matches!
so nice to match the data to your agenda


and why just 2017 date not their entire career so far?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
127 Posts
Overall points won

1 ESP ESP Rafael Nadal Active 54.41%
2 SRB SRB Novak Djokovic Active 54.30%
3 SUI SUI Roger Federer Active 54.15%
4 USA USA Pete Sampras 53.51%
5 USA USA Andre Agassi 53.35%

Hard points won

1 SRB SRB Novak Djokovic Active 54.58%
2 SUI SUI Roger Federer Active 54.38%
3 USA USA Pete Sampras 53.91%
4 USA USA Andre Agassi 53.83%
5 GBR GBR Andy Murray Active 53.46%

Grass points won

1 USA USA Pete Sampras 54.64%
2 SUI SUI Roger Federer Active 54.60%
3 GBR GBR Andy Murray Active 53.83%
4 SRB SRB Novak Djokovic Active 53.80%
5 NED NED Richard Krajicek 53.70%

Clay points won

1 ESP ESP Rafael Nadal Active 56.23%
2 SRB SRB Novak Djokovic Active 53.98%
3 SUI SUI Roger Federer Active 53.49%
4 AUT AUT Thomas Muster 53.41%
5 USA USA Jim Courier 53.13%
Interesting stats. It doesn't tell the whole story though.

For example (extreme example to make it obvious): Let's say PlayerA plays PlayerB 100times, and PlayerA wins 3 of every 4 matches (75%), so PlayerA wins 75 times.

What if PlayerA only wins when he's in good-great form 75 times (winning ONLY by 1-5 points total), and loses 25 times very badly due to terrible form, sickness, fitness issue (losing by 10-15 points) (i.e. Wawrinka in slams VS. small tournaments, in the last few years). If we now tally total points won, it would reflect the 2 players being about even, when in fact PlayerA owns PlayerB.

We can only look at each match in isolation to see who wins them, points-wise. No need of course, bc tennis' scoring-system is not gonna change. I was only saying that Federer would probably win more matches if sets were scored like TBs. I could be wrong. :wink2:

Edit: I could be wrong, but Federer's TB records suggested otherwise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
746 Posts
Federer gets more practice at tie-breakers because he's an often poor returner (when compared to Nadal/Djokovic).
Nadal has played 1,091 professional matches. Djokovic has played 973 professional matches. They've both being playing tennis since they were kids. They practice tennis virtually every day.

But they haven't had enough practice at tie-breaks.
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top