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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_suit

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Sinterklaas (where the name Santa Claus stems from, and which itself stems from Sint-Nicolaas) already had a red and white outfit; don't know if it was the inspiration for Thomas Nast, but sounds reasonable. Giving gifts to children was already a thing with Sinterklaas. Apparently Dutch kids filled their klompen with hay, carrots and sugar, for Sinterklaas' horse. He then in exchange filled the shoes with gifts.



Wonder if that Zwarte Piet figure is still going on strong in this day and age? Seems controversial. Any Dutch people wanna chime in...?

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St. Nicholas, children and giftgiving:



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As for the Nordic precursor, it's a paganistic tradition, the character looked like a goat (guys dressed in a fur and wearing a goat mask; they were more scary, going from house to house drinking people's liquor etc., but also brought some presents to good kids and dry twigs to bad ones. Similar to Krampus in Central European tradition and folklore.

Didn't know about Nast's version. It looks similar to Coca-Cola one too. So basically Santa Claus is mixture of some Nordic demon, Odin, false legend of St. Nicholas and corporate design. :spit:
Sinterklaas looks awful really, like some alternate Pope, with his African servants. Is this Finnish language on Nordic demon illustration?
 

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Wonder if that Zwarte Piet figure is still going on strong in this day and age? Seems controversial. Any Dutch people wanna chime in...?
I'd rather not, because the last years it has been a really awful and polarised debate in The Netherlands between adult people from both sides ruining a tradition for children on the 5th of December.

Each year, Sinterklaas arrives at a city on his boat traveling from Spain. Since a couple of years, people want to demonstrate against 'Zwarte Piet' (called 'Kick Out Zwarte Piet'), because they consider this to be racism and talk about 'blackface'. This year, a bunch of idiotic football hooligans tried to fight them at multiple cities in The Netherlands. Tons of police officers had to secure the arrival of Sinterklaas. People got arrested. It's quite sad for what used to be a nice children's celebration.

Other countries like Belgium, Germany, Curacao and Suriname also celebrate Sinterklaas. Over there, 'Zwarte Piet' is not an issue. Especially in Curacao (they choose to paint Sinterklaas white) and Suriname, the arrival of Sinterklaas looks like a festival which makes it even more ironic of course that people in The Netherlands go crazy about it.
 

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[...] Is this Finnish language on Nordic demon illustration? [...]
Yes. Below the right picture it reads: "The primegoat (or rootgoat... or original goat... not sure what the proper/best translation would be) is harvesting food for winter."


edit. Maybe "primeval goat"... the first of its kind
 

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Yes. Below the right picture it reads: "The primegoat (or rootgoat... or original goat... not sure what the proper/best translation would be) is harvesting food for winter."
So that same prime goat :lol: is the one that goes to people's houses? Probably not since one on the right looks like a giant.

Edit: Anyway, should not have anything to do with Christmas date which should be about Jesus.
 

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I'd rather not, because the last years it has been a really awful and polarised debate in The Netherlands between adult people from both sides ruining a tradition for children on the 5th of December.

Each year, Sinterklaas arrives at a city on his boat traveling from Spain. Since a couple of years, people want to demonstrate against 'Zwarte Piet' (called 'Kick Out Zwarte Piet'), because they consider this to be racism and talk about 'blackface'. This year, a bunch of idiotic football hooligans tried to fight them at multiple cities in The Netherlands. Tons of police officers had to secure the arrival of Sinterklaas. People got arrested. It's quite sad for what used to be a nice children's celebration.

Other countries like Belgium, Germany, Curacao and Suriname also celebrate Sinterklaas. Over there, 'Zwarte Piet' is not an issue. Especially in Curacao (they choose to paint Sinterklaas white) and Suriname, the arrival of Sinterklaas looks like a festival which makes it even more ironic of course that people in The Netherlands go crazy about it.
Is Zwarte Piet (supposed to be) an equal of Sinterklaas, or a servant of his? If the latter, I think it's pushing it... remnant of a past era. More of a tragic character. That's my initial thought at least. In case of the first, I'm not as sure. E.g. the blackface critique. Haven't delved into that subject / figured it out for myself.
 

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Like anything else, correction will come when things swing from one extreme to another. Extremism never last long... well that’s what I hope anyway.
 

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Santa has nothing to do with gender equality, some figures are men and some are ladies. Ie, tooth fairy, Disney characters etc.


Its time for this madness to stop!!!!
not according to the German government that just made official the 3rd sex bathroom.

The madness will eventually stop when some people realize that they put in danger their own freedoms in the long run when they impose on others to obey certain behavioral patterns and speech codes. If speech is regulated for ANY reason then only thought is left and we are done. And since speech is already kind of regulated through several hate speech laws around the world, I have no doubt that a "minority report" kind of future where you could get arrested before the crime could be a sad Orwellian reality.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
not according to the German government that just made official the 3rd sex bathroom.
For this i blame the Kardashians
 

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So that same prime goat :lol: is the one that goes to people's houses? Probably not since one on the right looks like a giant.

Edit: Anyway, should not have anything to do with Christmas date which should be about Jesus.
"You better watch out
xYou better not cry
xBetter not pout
xI'm telling you why
xPrimeval goat is coming to town"

One guy actually came up with a story around that idea, that Santa would be living up in the northern part of Finland, but he's not the typical Santa people know, but more like that primeval goat. First they made a short film with a slightly different idea, but they expanded it to a full length one with the primeval goat angle added. Not bad IMO. This one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Exports:_A_Christmas_Tale This is the initial short one:

[ame]https://vimeo.com/16878465[/ame]
 

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Discussion Starter #30

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"You better watch out
xYou better not cry
xBetter not pout
xI'm telling you why
xPrimeval goat is coming to town"

One guy actually came up with a story around that idea, that Santa would be living up in the northern part of Finland, but he's not the typical Santa people know, but more like that primeval goat. First they made a short film with a slightly different idea, but they expanded it to a full length one with the primeval goat angle added. Not bad IMO. This one:
Looks interesting. I already found full movie, might watch it sometime next week.

Futurama and American Dad also have episodes about bad Santa.
 

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Santx. :D

Kind of agree with this guy:


I.e. I don't get why it's important in the first place to have a fictional character be some specific sex. It's fairly easy to change as well. It's a costume, or a drawing etc. Do as you please in the end, but one shouldn't get too riled up over what someone else chooses to do in terms of a fictional character. IMO. One prefers a male Santa, the other a female... Pretty easy to arrange.
 

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Is Zwarte Piet (supposed to be) an equal of Sinterklaas, or a servant of his? If the latter, I think it's pushing it... remnant of a past era. More of a tragic character. That's my initial thought at least. In case of the first, I'm not as sure. E.g. the blackface critique. Haven't delved into that subject / figured it out for myself.
It depends on a person's interpretation of the character. Some legacies describe ZP as a former slave, some as a devilish person, some as a person who divided children into 'bad' and 'good' kids, and some as a helpful and kind person who brings joy to children.

During my childhood, most kids were afraid of Sinterklaas (old, grumpy man who likes to have children sitting on his lap, he actually could have been the pope) and loved ZP. But I'm from a generation who doesn't see colour.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
1) Not that simple now. At the start yes, now, you can't just go changing it and confusing kids!?

2) The santa thing is not the root of the problem. It is idiots trying to be overly PC when it suits them that is the problem
 

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This should settle the debate:

In a 2015 survey, kids were asked if they would be happy with a female Santa.

"No, because on Christmas Eve she would get lost on the way to my house."

Can’t argue with logic!
The stupid myth that women do not know how to drive or navigate

:shrug: At first I thought it was an April Fool's joke.

School children to be taught 'boys can have periods too' in new sex education move.

https://news.yahoo.com/school-children-taught-boys-can-periods-new-sex-education-move-101453236.html
makes me want to puke.

that Progressive liberalism have lost it
 
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