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Mild decline lol. Did you watch tennis before 2011. Bud let me tell you something. Peak Federer would never lose to peak Djokovic on any surface. Go back and watch Federer pre 2008.
Yet the same Fed was winning & making GS finals up to 2019 including vulturing when Novak was down from 2017-18.
Just curious, what’s your ‘reasoning’ for the no.1’s peer Nadal not making a WB final, much less winning one for a decade now & no, skipping it doesn’t count as an excuse?
 

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So no counter argument. Seems i get summary judgement on this thread.
Surprised you know that term. But I guess you are used to applying terms at your own discretion. A judge wouldn't grant you summary judgment if you presented no evidence of your claim. Saying "do your own research" and saying that someone said something without proof (HEARSAY...and I'm being very generous with the definition) would get you no where. But here, no one can hold you accountable and you say whatever you want.

Oh yeah: Nadal will never be GOAT.
 

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ESPN Goat debate: Mcenroes, Evert, Gilbert, Blake, Cahill.


It would be appreciated if somebody could upload the full audio or video footage.

If somebody here has got ESPN subscription, is it possible to rewatch those ESPN "Breakfast at Wimbledon" episodes and some full matches using ESPN player ? The upload time for this one was July the 9th i.e. on the men's semifinals day.
 

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Surprised you know that term. But I guess you are used to applying terms at your own discretion. A judge wouldn't grant you summary judgment if you presented no evidence of your claim. Saying "do your own research" and saying that someone said something without proof (HEARSAY...and I'm being very generous with the definition) would get you no where. But here, no one can hold you accountable and you say whatever you want.

Oh yeah: Nadal will never be GOAT.
The evidence is there bud. Nadal has all the stats. Most Majors across the Big 3 Majors, best h2h, and most Majors at one slam. Like i say i would get summary judgement and costs. You argue like a lay person.
 

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Yet the same Fed was winning & making GS finals up to 2019 including vulturing when Novak was down from 2017-18.
Just curious, what’s your ‘reasoning’ for the no.1’s peer Nadal not making a WB final, much less winning one for a decade now & no, skipping it doesn’t count as an excuse?
Knee injuries which if you actually played the game which i appreciate is probably hard from where you are from, you would understand the nuances of how the low bounce hurts Nadal's chronic knees. Still he bat peak Federer the grass court GOAT at his peak, Djokovic never did so Nadal gets the bragging rights...again.
 

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No counter argument at all. In fact, I feel more and more that Nadal is the GOAT. You must be doing a good job. Probably just a matter of time until the hardcore fanbases of Nole and Fed are converted to the one true faith.
They will be if Nadal wins USO 2021. That will be the GOAT defining tournament i am sure
 

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Please, go back and re-watch Federer during his prime, because he was losing to Safin, Nalbandian, Gasquet! 😅 Volandri!!! 🤣 Canas!!! 😂 Hrbaty!!! 😁 Henman 😄....
If he was losing to that kind of powerhouses, then peak Djokovic would not have any problems to beat him majority of the time
Safin owned Djokovic bud as did Roddick. Djokovic struggled that era. You just admitted Federer is greater.
 

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Time to make another thread.

But just remember: no matter how many threads you make, Nadal will never be GOAT.

Remember that.
Nadal is GOAT by Order of the locker room. No offence i'll take Rublev view or Sharapova or Murray over expat serbians living in the US etc.
 

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The evidence is there bud. Nadal has all the stats. Most Majors across the Big 3 Majors, best h2h, and most Majors at one slam. Like i say i would get summary judgement and costs. You argue like a lay person.
Name one person or one news org that uses those 3 stats as evidence that Nadal is GOAT.

I would be shocked if such a stupid person — other than yourself — even exists.

You can’t find one article to back up your nonsense, meanwhile, I can:




Now go ahead and tell me how useless this article is while you — for the 100th time — fail to cite any source that backs your claims because nobody thinks Nadal is GOAT.

Nadal will never be GOAT and you won’t find any new sources that says that he is. Now go search Google and you won’t find anything. And comeback and give an excuse for why you won’t post anything lol
 

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Safin owned Djokovic bud as did Roddick. Djokovic struggled that era. You just admitted Federer is greater.
You're so right. It unbelievably embarrassing to lose, while one is in teenager years or figuring out oneself game, to experienced (multi) slam winners 👍
 

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c/p

" All hail Novak Djokovic, king of anti-tennis

On Sunday, July 11, Novak Djokovic won his sixth Wimbledon title, cruising to a four-set victory over the young Italian Matteo Berrettini. It was the 34-year-old’s 20th Grand Slam title, bringing him into a three-way tie with Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal for the most all-time. Given Djokovic’s relatively young age (Federer is 39, Nadal 35), his impressive fitness, his unparalleled mental strength, and his dominance on hard court and grass, the surfaces on which three of the four Slams are played, he is likely to finish with several more.

But even if his career ended tomorrow, Djokovic would have a convincing case for being considered the best tennis player of all time. He has spent the most consecutive weeks ranked No. 1, is tied with Pete Sampras for the most year-end No. 1s, and is the only player to win every Grand Slam tournament at least twice. If he wins the U.S. Open later this summer, and he likely will, he will not only have the most majors of all time but become the first player since Rod Laver to win all four in a single year. Perhaps most important for his legacy, he has a winning record against both Nadal (30-28) and Federer (27-23), including a 4-1 record against Federer in Grand Slam finals (losing only their first meeting, at the 2007 U.S. Open) and two victories against Nadal, the greatest clay-court player in history, at the French Open, including in this year’s semi-final.

He is also, for the most part, unloved. Crowds cheer against him, especially when he plays other members of the “Big Three.” I am guilty of this myself. I find Djokovic boring and tend to pull for whoever happens to be playing him on a given day. Federer is my favorite and, in my estimation, the most beautiful player ever to pick up a racket. When he’s on, his game is like a work of art: aggressive yet cerebral and balletic, with a perfect mix of delicate touch and fluid power. Nadal is more of a brawler and grinder, but there’s still something appealing, even aesthetic, in his raw athleticism and unconventional style — built around the mind-boggling amount of topspin he applies to his lefty forehand, which he uses to bludgeon his opponents into submission.

Djokovic, by contrast, plays something like anti-tennis. Although he’s recently improved his serve and his volleys and possesses one of the best drop shots in the game, he is fundamentally a conservative, defensive player. His game is built around consistency, a phenomenal return of serve, and an equally remarkable ability to chase down balls that he has absolutely no business getting back in play, forever forcing his opponents to hit one more shot when they think they’ve already got the point won. Although capable of attacking when necessary, he’d much prefer to win points by baiting the other guy into going for too much and either missing or hitting himself into a vulnerable position. Plus, there’s his well-earned reputation as a mental giant, which further ratchets up the pressure on opponents. Half the time, it seems that Djokovic doesn’t really have to do much of anything to win — the other player is so intimidated by the task of not only breaking down the Serb’s defense but also out-Zenning him on the crucial points that his game just falls apart.

This dynamic was painfully evident in what was Djokovic’s toughest test at this year’s Wimbledon, his semi-final match against the young Canadian gunslinger Denis Shapovalov. The far better player for most of the first set, Shapovalov dominated on serve and bullied Djokovic from the baseline, earning an early break that gave him a chance to serve out the set at 5-4. In that game, at 30-30, the Canadian inexplicably sailed an easy put-away long, and then, after fighting back to deuce, made two consecutive backhand errors to hand over the break. Then, in the first-to-seven tiebreak, Shapovalov coughed up five unforced errors before double-faulting on set point (something Dominic Thiem also did against Djokovic in the first set of the 2020 Australian Open final). Djokovic, throughout all of this, hadn’t done much except keep the ball deep and inside the court. One moment he was getting pushed around, the next, he was holding a (for him) commanding one-set lead, and the difference between the two was seemingly all between Shapovalov’s ears.

This is a form of greatness, to be sure. Tennis is an almost cruelly psychological sport, in which, to win, players must continually execute shots — a second serve, a backhand down the line, a forehand to the open court — that they know how to hit in their sleep. The question is whether they can hit these shots repeatedly, under immense pressure, with pride and glory and millions of dollars on the line. As a fan, you (or at least, I ) want to see someone rise to this challenge. It’s what has made Federer such a beloved figure. When he wins, he wins by playing tennis the way you feel it ought to be played: actively, with style and courage and flair, pulling his opponents around the court as if on a string before finishing them off with a baseline winner or volley. He seizes the game.

During a great Djokovic performance, on the other hand, it often looks like the Serb's opponent is trying to climb Everest without oxygen, with Djokovic in the role of mountain, ice, wind, and cold — a passive, inhuman force that will break all but the luckiest and bravest of men. You pull for the human on the other side of the net, but you suspect that, in the end, he doesn’t have it in him. Usually, you are right.

As a fan, I don’t particularly like that Djokovic has proven himself the greatest of all time. It feels, at some level, like an inversion of the “correct” narrative — nature conquering man, rather than the other way around. But one of the great things about tennis, about sports in general, is that it has no obligation to conform to our desires, expectations, or the stories we want to tell. What happens, happens, and fans must deal with it. Djokovic has triumphed, emphatically, in the face of a tennis world that has always wanted to see him fail, and the mental strength and self-belief he has developed in the face of this opposition is without a doubt his greatest asset as a player. That’s a great story in itself, even if it wasn’t the one I was hoping for."

Park MacDougald is Life and Arts editor of the Washington Examiner magazine.
 

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c/p

" All hail Novak Djokovic, king of anti-tennis

On Sunday, July 11, Novak Djokovic won his sixth Wimbledon title, cruising to a four-set victory over the young Italian Matteo Berrettini. It was the 34-year-old’s 20th Grand Slam title, bringing him into a three-way tie with Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal for the most all-time. Given Djokovic’s relatively young age (Federer is 39, Nadal 35), his impressive fitness, his unparalleled mental strength, and his dominance on hard court and grass, the surfaces on which three of the four Slams are played, he is likely to finish with several more.

But even if his career ended tomorrow, Djokovic would have a convincing case for being considered the best tennis player of all time. He has spent the most consecutive weeks ranked No. 1, is tied with Pete Sampras for the most year-end No. 1s, and is the only player to win every Grand Slam tournament at least twice. If he wins the U.S. Open later this summer, and he likely will, he will not only have the most majors of all time but become the first player since Rod Laver to win all four in a single year. Perhaps most important for his legacy, he has a winning record against both Nadal (30-28) and Federer (27-23), including a 4-1 record against Federer in Grand Slam finals (losing only their first meeting, at the 2007 U.S. Open) and two victories against Nadal, the greatest clay-court player in history, at the French Open, including in this year’s semi-final.

He is also, for the most part, unloved. Crowds cheer against him, especially when he plays other members of the “Big Three.” I am guilty of this myself. I find Djokovic boring and tend to pull for whoever happens to be playing him on a given day. Federer is my favorite and, in my estimation, the most beautiful player ever to pick up a racket. When he’s on, his game is like a work of art: aggressive yet cerebral and balletic, with a perfect mix of delicate touch and fluid power. Nadal is more of a brawler and grinder, but there’s still something appealing, even aesthetic, in his raw athleticism and unconventional style — built around the mind-boggling amount of topspin he applies to his lefty forehand, which he uses to bludgeon his opponents into submission.

Djokovic, by contrast, plays something like anti-tennis. Although he’s recently improved his serve and his volleys and possesses one of the best drop shots in the game, he is fundamentally a conservative, defensive player. His game is built around consistency, a phenomenal return of serve, and an equally remarkable ability to chase down balls that he has absolutely no business getting back in play, forever forcing his opponents to hit one more shot when they think they’ve already got the point won. Although capable of attacking when necessary, he’d much prefer to win points by baiting the other guy into going for too much and either missing or hitting himself into a vulnerable position. Plus, there’s his well-earned reputation as a mental giant, which further ratchets up the pressure on opponents. Half the time, it seems that Djokovic doesn’t really have to do much of anything to win — the other player is so intimidated by the task of not only breaking down the Serb’s defense but also out-Zenning him on the crucial points that his game just falls apart.

This dynamic was painfully evident in what was Djokovic’s toughest test at this year’s Wimbledon, his semi-final match against the young Canadian gunslinger Denis Shapovalov. The far better player for most of the first set, Shapovalov dominated on serve and bullied Djokovic from the baseline, earning an early break that gave him a chance to serve out the set at 5-4. In that game, at 30-30, the Canadian inexplicably sailed an easy put-away long, and then, after fighting back to deuce, made two consecutive backhand errors to hand over the break. Then, in the first-to-seven tiebreak, Shapovalov coughed up five unforced errors before double-faulting on set point (something Dominic Thiem also did against Djokovic in the first set of the 2020 Australian Open final). Djokovic, throughout all of this, hadn’t done much except keep the ball deep and inside the court. One moment he was getting pushed around, the next, he was holding a (for him) commanding one-set lead, and the difference between the two was seemingly all between Shapovalov’s ears.

This is a form of greatness, to be sure. Tennis is an almost cruelly psychological sport, in which, to win, players must continually execute shots — a second serve, a backhand down the line, a forehand to the open court — that they know how to hit in their sleep. The question is whether they can hit these shots repeatedly, under immense pressure, with pride and glory and millions of dollars on the line. As a fan, you (or at least, I ) want to see someone rise to this challenge. It’s what has made Federer such a beloved figure. When he wins, he wins by playing tennis the way you feel it ought to be played: actively, with style and courage and flair, pulling his opponents around the court as if on a string before finishing them off with a baseline winner or volley. He seizes the game.

During a great Djokovic performance, on the other hand, it often looks like the Serb's opponent is trying to climb Everest without oxygen, with Djokovic in the role of mountain, ice, wind, and cold — a passive, inhuman force that will break all but the luckiest and bravest of men. You pull for the human on the other side of the net, but you suspect that, in the end, he doesn’t have it in him. Usually, you are right.

As a fan, I don’t particularly like that Djokovic has proven himself the greatest of all time. It feels, at some level, like an inversion of the “correct” narrative — nature conquering man, rather than the other way around. But one of the great things about tennis, about sports in general, is that it has no obligation to conform to our desires, expectations, or the stories we want to tell. What happens, happens, and fans must deal with it. Djokovic has triumphed, emphatically, in the face of a tennis world that has always wanted to see him fail, and the mental strength and self-belief he has developed in the face of this opposition is without a doubt his greatest asset as a player. That’s a great story in itself, even if it wasn’t the one I was hoping for."

Park MacDougald is Life and Arts editor of the Washington Examiner magazine.
😄😄😄😄😄😄
what an hater...
this guy must be one of the mtf fednerds!

obviously rooting for anyone agains nole:
"You pull for the human on the other side of the net, but you suspect that, in the end, he doesn’t have it in him. Usually, you are right."

its true, that the wins nole produced, were not only vs. the opposition, but, at the same time mostly also vs. the crowd (at least in western hemisphere), which is basically giving his opposition the "home-team"-advantage. This is increasing the value of noles wins GREATLY, but that never crosses the authors mind.

this guy is clearly in love with fed... pour soul, now he has to live with the fact, that very probably nole + raffa will end up having more slams than his fav...
😭😭😭

his hero on a white horse plays: "...with style and courage and flair, pulling his opponents around the court as if on a string before finishing them off with a baseline winner or volley. He seizes the game."

thats exactly what fed more often than not, just couldn't accomplish vs. novak, esp. since 2011.

novak (but also rafa) just would not allow him. cry more...
😄😄😄

he sees novak doing nothing but: "...hadn’t done much except keep the ball deep and inside the court."

why then couldn't former goat fed, or shapo or any other basher hit through nole enough times for the win?

why dont they emulate novak for the win, when he is doing only that easy stuff (ball deep in court).

maybe because they cannot? (probably they really cannot... at least the crazy hard saves, that nole often gets back)

or the stylish and flairy players reject playing that way, as being below their standard of stylishness... only something for the "plebs"... nevermind loosing games and titles, its not flairy enough...
🙄😄😄😄

or is it (just maybe), that joker might have some other qualities, other than weakly pushing the ball back, and hypnotize all opponents with his strong mind, to loose the matches/titles regardless??

hmmm.. no, that nolehater would never believe that.
 

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You're so right. It unbelievably embarrassing to lose, while one is in teenager years or figuring out oneself game, to experienced (multi) slam winners 👍
So you accept Nadal and Federer are GOAT's, as both are now senior tour eligible. Teenagers generally achieve more than senior tour eligible players on the main tour. Checkmate haha.
 

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Name one person or one news org that uses those 3 stats as evidence that Nadal is GOAT.

I would be shocked if such a stupid person — other than yourself — even exists.

You can’t find one article to back up your nonsense, meanwhile, I can:




Now go ahead and tell me how useless this article is while you — for the 100th time — fail to cite any source that backs your claims because nobody thinks Nadal is GOAT.

Nadal will never be GOAT and you won’t find any new sources that says that he is. Now go search Google and you won’t find anything. And comeback and give an excuse for why you won’t post anything lol
Nadal is GOAT it is done and dusted. All the pros say so. Brad Gilbert as well after RG2020 said so. Has not said anything about Djokovic at all. Your post is laughably inept as it says OPINION lol. Opinion is not fact. In a court of law if you put opinion evidence in a witness statement you would get struck out. You must do better.
I merely post facts. Nadal has joint most Majors, most Majors at one slam, leading h2h at Majors v his main rivals, an Olympic Gold, and a Surface Slam across the three biggest Majors and has won the most Majors at the Big 3. Oh, and leads the m1000 table jointly and in no category does he have the advantage of 50% or 75% of events on his best surface.
As for Federer he too owns Djokovic as put simply his best was always too much for Djokovic on any surface. 1. Nadal. 2. Federer..............................3. Djokovic. Facts trump opinions.
 

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...
He is also, for the most part, unloved. Crowds cheer against him, especially when he plays other members of the “Big Three.” I am guilty of this myself. I find Djokovic boring and tend to pull for whoever happens to be playing him on a given day. Federer is my favorite and, in my estimation, the most beautiful player ever to pick up a racket. When he’s on, his game is like a work of art: aggressive yet cerebral and balletic, with a perfect mix of delicate touch and fluid power. Nadal is more of a brawler and grinder, but there’s still something appealing, even aesthetic, in his raw athleticism and unconventional style — built around the mind-boggling amount of topspin he applies to his lefty forehand, which he uses to bludgeon his opponents into submission.
One could only imagine author's "accolades" if it had been young Djoker instead of young Nadal who had started taking 35-40 seconds vs Federer, forcing him to patiently wait until he aesthetically fixes his hair, nose and tight shorts, so that he can continue with tio Tony's simple grinding game plan of at least 10-20 opportunistic exchanges moonballing-FH to OHBH, per every point if possible, until an elicited shorter ball or an error, and an inevitable breakdown of Federer's OHBH by the 4th or 5th set.

At that time, 2006-2010, despite preferring Federer's game & style, I was rooting for the tennis saviour Nadal, during Fedal's rubbers, but there was always a giant question mark hanging over my head during and after the matches: "Why the hell Federer tacitly allows his main & considerably younger rival to get away with this blatant 35-40 seconds between the points replenishing practice, that not only allows him to effectively use his moonballing tactics & strategy for the full five sets instead of two sets maximum before Nadal's burnout, but also gives him a considerable mental advantage and self-assurance for the whole match as well, and probably for every future slam rubber regardless on the clay, HC or grass."

After the second time abuse and protest McEnroe would be like: "You cannot be SERIOUS !!! the whole STADIUM is waiting for you to finally punish this PUNK ...
 

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Nadal is GOAT it is done and dusted. All the pros say so. Brad Gilbert as well after RG2020 said so. Has not said anything about Djokovic at all. Your post is laughably inept as it says OPINION lol. Opinion is not fact. In a court of law if you put opinion evidence in a witness statement you would get struck out. You must do better.
I merely post facts. Nadal has joint most Majors, most Majors at one slam, leading h2h at Majors v his main rivals, an Olympic Gold, and a Surface Slam across the three biggest Majors and has won the most Majors at the Big 3. Oh, and leads the m1000 table jointly and in no category does he have the advantage of 50% or 75% of events on his best surface.
As for Federer he too owns Djokovic as put simply his best was always too much for Djokovic on any surface. 1. Nadal. 2. Federer..............................3. Djokovic. Facts trump opinions.
No citations found

I knew it. Thanks!

How long did you search? lol How does it feel to know that professional sports writers think Djokovic is GOAT and don’t even consider Nadal?

And expert opinion is evidence you Law & Order reject
 

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The battle of the slams & m1000 between Nadal and Djokovic is definitely ON. Djokovic might have more variety in his titles but Nadal has more dominance and epicness. Those many GOD MODE 10+ titles are just too epic and impressive. Both players have great stats with different strengths (Double Career vs La Decimas Galore) but at the end of the day what will matter most is who will have the biggest total in each category (especially slams).

Also the fact that Nadal is equal with Djokovic despite Djokovic having considerably more tournaments on his favorite surface hardcourt is simply stunning. But speaking of hardcourt I predict that Nadal will take the lead with his 6th Canadian Open and 5th USO title. He is a force in both of these tournaments.

TournamentDjokovicNadal
Australian Open91
Roland Garros213 (God Mode)
Wimbledon Championships62
US Open34
Total Count2020




TournamentDjokovicNadal
Olympics01
Davis Cup15
Year-End Championship50

The USO will be huge as GOATdal will make his ultimate move. To be continued.

 

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Double career slam > single career slam.
Double career masters > zero career masters.

Face the facts.
 

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Nadal never won Paris or Miami. That automatically disqualifies him in any tiebreaker. Not to mention Djokovic's double career masters.
 

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Double career slam > single career slam.
Double career masters > zero career masters.

Face the facts.
Sorry but those Decimas are what will stand the test of time. They are pure domination. Look at the chart, those DOUBLE DIGITS are what stand out most. Too ridiculous and epic, they are ALIEN-LIKE and GOD MODE.
 
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