Mens Tennis Forums banner

1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,233 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
He didn't win in Paris.
But Paris wasn't a Masters all the time...as long as he won the tournament which was replaced by Paris later, it counts as he won that particular Masters event...Among the current Masters events, Nadal never won Shanghai, Paris, Miami but still in his Masters resume, they count it as 7/9 because Nadal won Madrid (HC) in 2005 which was later replaced by Shanghai in 2009
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
695 Posts
comeon...it's just the name that's different....even back then, there were only 9 tournaments even in that era too...just that they were called with a different name back then
I'm not saying it makes sense. I'm just trying to explain why, if Djokovic wins Cinicinnati, some would claim he'll be the first player to win all tournaments in the ATP Masters series.

Personally, I don't think that record is particularly relevant in a historical context. It's more relevant when comparing Djokovic's achievements in the context of the Big 3.

But historically, I agree Lendl did it first, and he deserves credit for that. He was, of course, a phenomenal player. In my opinion, he is very a underrated player in this forum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,233 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I'm not saying it makes sense. I'm just trying to explain why, if Djokovic wins Cinicinnati, some would claim he'll be the first player to win all tournaments in the ATP Masters series.

But historically, I agree Lendl did it first, and he deserves credit for that. He was, of course, a phenomenal player. In my opinion, he is very a underrated player in this forum.
totally agree...I myself didn't know much about Lendl before as I wasn't even alive when he was playing and I didn't see his name often coming up in any of goat debates (usually it was Sampras, Rod Laver, Emerson etc)...only when I started digging into some of Lendl's stats, I realized how extremely consistent he was at top for so many years...not many players played at top level for so long consistently...and may be his slam count ( reached 19 finals which is super impressive but was only able to win 40% of them) is another reason why he is underrated I guess....most of the fans in this gen are slam obsessed and I don't think there was this much obsession with slam back in those days.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
242 Posts
But Paris wasn't a Masters all the time...as long as he won the tournament which was replaced by Paris later, it counts as he won that particular Masters event...Among the current Masters events, Nadal never won Shanghai, Paris, Miami but still in his Masters resume, they count it as 7/9 because Nadal won Madrid (HC) in 2005 which was later replaced by Shanghai in 2009
Yeah, I know how it works, yet the number of Grand Prix tournaments wasn't regular (8 or 9 in several years), so I wonder whether Paris tournament was considered as a replacement of Tokyo (?) in those years. If yes, then theoretically we should consider him as the first player ever to win all Grand Prix/Masters 1000 tournaments.

On the other hand, these tournaments were not as prestigous as M1000s nowadays.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,950 Posts
Lendl's name was in discussion for goat by experts here along with Borg back in late 90s until Sampras. Then it was Sampras vs Borg, Lendl left out, until total dissapearance
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,780 Posts
Yes, Ivan Lendl is the only holder, so far, of all 9 date slots. The ATP should be more careful when using the term "History".

From 1978 to 1989 the current Masters events were basically known as the Grand Prix Super Series though they also had different branding from 1970-1977 along the way. They have been re-branded a few times since.

There have been several changes over the years where tournaments were replaced, and tournaments move to different date slots, so it can be confusing.

Lendl won titles in all of the date slots:

Slot 1 (now Indian Wells): Philadelphia
Slot 2 (now Miami): Monte Carlo, Miami
Slot 3 (now Monte Carlo): Las Vegas, Forest Hills, Monte Carlo
Slot 4 (now Madrid): Forest Hills, Rome, Hamburg
Slot 5 (now Rome): Rome
Slot 6 (now Canada): Canada (1980 was Lendl's first title in this category)
Slot 7 (now Cincinnati): Cincinnati
Slot 8 (now Shanghai): Tokyo
Slot 9 (now Paris): Stockholm (1989 was Lendl's last title in this category)

Paris replaced Stockholm in the 9th slot in 1990. London and Johannesburg also earlier occupied the 9th slot.

FYI, Djokovic played Hamburg when it occupied slot 5, but never won there, like Lendl in Paris.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,279 Posts
So I guess this helps Djokovic in the big 3 debate but it’s not historical then. First to do it since Lendl if he does it tomorrow. Strange the ATP never highlighted this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
611 Posts
I'm not saying it makes sense. I'm just trying to explain why, if Djokovic wins Cinicinnati, some would claim he'll be the first player to win all tournaments in the ATP Masters series.

Personally, I don't think that record is particularly relevant in a historical context. It's more relevant when comparing Djokovic's achievements in the context of the Big 3.

But historically, I agree Lendl did it first, and he deserves credit for that. He was, of course, a phenomenal player. In my opinion, he is very a underrated player in this forum.
Totally agree re Ivan. Hated him in 2004 for ruining Mac's calendar GS chance but he revolutionized men's tennis with his training regime and the way he hit the ball. Yes, yes, I know the pre Open Auzzies were demon trainers but he was the Martina of men's tennis with his steely approach to training and matches. Plus the whole sawdust thing. And if Novak was treated as badly as Lendl was by the Press (in particular US) in his career, he'd be home curled up sobbing. :crying:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,489 Posts
And if Novak was treated as badly as Lendl was by the Press (in particular US) in his career, he'd be home curled up sobbing. :crying:
Back then Novak, with his screaming and shirt tearing, would be treated like Ivan Drago from Rocky. He'd be the antichrist of tennis. He'd probably fuel from it even more, annihilating everything in it's path until they'd eventually offer him a USA citizenship. :D But I actually think that is the stance he needs to take even today, a determination of sheer resistance, not assimilation into the Western idea of a tennis hero. He has even embraced it a bit I think at some occasions (see Wimbledon crowds). Will be fun to see how the ATP or sponsors cope with the Next Gen non cookie cut stars with the ever more dwindling chance to have a white guy from a Western World as a champion.

/ontopic

You can't compare tournament wins at different eras, since the system has changed so much, that's why it's pretty useless to compare Open Era with pre-Open era, and compare accomplishments. Masters was a new concept and as such should be valued separately. Not as in "But something similar of that kind existed in 1970's".
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,047 Posts
Even if things are slightly different, Super Series were not mandatory tournaments and ATP ranking was not Best of 18 so many Super Series were zapped by Big Names (Lendl first as he played a lot in Lamar Hunt Circuit where big money was instead of ATP), Lendl collected all Super Series too.

What could be better in possible Djokovic achievement is he collected ALL 1000+ tournaments in career : WTF 4 Slams and 9 GS when Lendl never won Wimbledon
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,174 Posts
Yeah lendl did it first. It would still be a great achievement by Djokovic.

Lendl, like McEnroe, was screwed by the rapid change in racket technology that occurred in the 80s and early 90s. Like other players his age, he developed his game with a wooden racket. This technique was less well suited to more modern equipment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,573 Posts
Yeah lendl did it first. It would still be a great achievement by Djokovic.

Lendl, like McEnroe, was screwed by the rapid change in racket technology that occurred in the 80s and early 90s. Like other players his age, he developed his game with a wooden racket. This technique was less well suited to more modern equipment.
Djokovic would be the first to win all the nine active venues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,573 Posts
...
Lendl won titles in all of the date slots:

Slot 1 (now Indian Wells): Philadelphia
Slot 2 (now Miami): Monte Carlo, Miami
Slot 3 (now Monte Carlo): Las Vegas, Forest Hills, Monte Carlo
Slot 4 (now Madrid): Forest Hills, Rome, Hamburg
Slot 5 (now Rome): Rome
Slot 6 (now Canada): Canada (1980 was Lendl's first title in this category)
Slot 7 (now Cincinnati): Cincinnati
Slot 8 (now Shanghai): Tokyo
Slot 9 (now Paris): Stockholm (1989 was Lendl's last title in this category)

Paris replaced Stockholm in the 9th slot in 1990. London and Johannesburg also earlier occupied the 9th slot.

FYI, Djokovic played Hamburg when it occupied slot 5, but never won there, like Lendl in Paris.

Respectfully,
masterclass
I don't think it is the day slot that matters here, though, but the legal succession of the particular super 9 tournament, regardless on the part of the season it has been played in thereafter.

If I'm correct these are the legal successors (underlined red line) that can be seen as the same masters/gpss/super9 tournament, during his career.



So, by winning Stockholm'89 he has won all the nine tournaments, and as can be seen, he has entered it only twice, zero times at London 1978-1983 and two times at Stockholm 1984-1994.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,937 Posts
The tennis world, the fans, the press and ATP probably prefers to forget all about Lendl and his records.

Sports Illustrated front-page below got it spot on:
That SI front page was just another anti-Lendl propaganda. There was a ton of that back then. Navratilova was suddenly cheered much more when she took US citizenship too. Same with Seles. Imagine freaking slam crowd booing 16 y.o. and go in trance for Graf. If Lendl played for USA from the start he would be made into Federer like icon, probably would had won many more slams too...
And yes, he has won all 9 Masters tournaments, whatever they called them.
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
Top