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The special one
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lol please. This is pointless. If he miraculously won 24 slams, the public will pivot to Nav being the greatest ever. All of a sudden Doubles will become the holy grail of GOATness.

Happened to Serena when there was still a chance she'd get to 24. Obv not anymore since there's 0 chance now
Yeah it's hilarious how the goalposts constantly change after every record Novak breaks
 

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I see there is a debate about Monica Seles and Steffi Graf! This is the only time in tennis history where I will put a question mark! Why? Here are the few reason:

1. Monica Seles was just a teenager and she was still developing - this is why her her head to head with Graff is such;

2. As developing young career she started to dominate women tennis and out of nowhere she was deprived single-handedly of her entire career. Besides the injury it was a major psychological hit on her and it was done by a fan of Graff - the same hatred today is pointed at a player from this region again - Novak Djokovic - in the same disgusting way - from the pro-Federer and Nadal media making some people be fanatics. The only difference is the state of protection today - on courts and outside.

3. Graff is a phenomenal player but she was deprived of her main competition. This is like you take away Nadal from 2005-2007 and removed him from the competition. We know what happened in the next years. Here, as opposed to injuries or many reasons tennis players didn't perform well or disappeared, we have an action from outside hands that had major consequences for women's tennis and the records. Monica Seles was never the same after that but she was that good that she managed to stay in top 10 for many years performing at incredible level - but her mentality was really damaged.

In other words Graff's records with that competition are really questionable. That's why Serena Williams, in my opinion, is bigger than her because she played in so many different years and against all possible competition.
 

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beat her at Australian Open in 93 (and then years later as well), that was on HC wasn’t it?

ps - 10 of their 15 h2h matches were at slams, that’s an awesome %
I agree, miss their rivalry too. Especially today.

Australian Open was played on Rebound Ace, which was at the time considered a slow court and different from other hard court courts...
Hard Courts are made of plastic, asphalt and concrete which was an advantage for tennis players who play speedy games and like to hit the ball hard, while Rebound Ace is much softer, as a result of which when the ball bounces the first time its speed rapidly decreases. The difference between the Rebound Ace and the hard court is the degree of hardness, which can effect either speeding up or slowing of the ball...
 

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I agree, miss their rivalry too. Especially today.

Australian Open was played on Rebound Ace, which was at the time considered a slow court and different from other hard court courts...
Hard Courts are made of plastic, asphalt and concrete which was an advantage for tennis players who play speedy games and like to hit the ball hard, while Rebound Ace is much softer, as a result of which when the ball bounces the first time its speed rapidly decreases. The difference between the Rebound Ace and the hard court is the degree of hardness.
Sure that makes sense, but it’s still officially classified as a hard court though
 

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In tennis you never know.

Before 1999 RG final, Hingis was clearly world number 1 with all Grand Slam titles won except French Open where she was the clear favorite...and she lost it...Not only lost, but has never ever won a Grand Slam title after that. Who would have predicted that based on her career prior to that moment...Nobody. So, nothing is certain.
No, this final was really a turning point for Hingis because she lost it from winning position and with a clear bad call from the umpire which Graf didn't admit but instead participated in the fanatical French crowd that booed 18 y. o. girl and will be remembered for the most disgusting final ever. Hingis never really mentally recovered from that and right after the final many experts questioned her performances in the next months. When we predict certain things we also see the trajectory of one's development - Hingis was removed from her number 1 by the more powerful girls who little by little were beating her in other tournaments also. So in her case the dominance stopped naturally but with Seles is totally different scenario - with the tennis, with the competition and her own abilities and maturity.
 

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No, this final was really a turning point for Hingis because she lost it from winning position and with a clear bad call from the umpire which Graff didn't admit but instead participated in the fanatical French crowd that booed 18 y. o. girl and will be remembered for the most disgusting final ever. Hingis never really mentally recovered from that and right after the final many experts questioned her performances in the next months. When we predict certain things we also see the trajectory of one's development - Hingis was removed from her number 1 by the more powerful girls who little by little were beating her in other tournaments also. So in her case the dominance stopped naturally but with Seles is totally different scenario - with the tennis, with the competition and her own abilities and maturity.
Oh, please...First of all who is Graff??? It's Graf...very easy to remember.

Second thing, line call and the crowd didn't prevent Hingis to play well and get to the point to serve for the match, but she still couldn't win. Not to blame the umpire and the crowd for the defeat.

Thirdly, we are talking here about probabilities in tennis and that nothing could be taken for granted, no matter how much one was dominant at some point.
 

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The only records he has amassed w/o Fedal present were a few like weeks at no.1 passing Fed & just passing Nadal in Masters making this a very weak argument, not era.

Nearly every other record he has accomplished when they were all competing as well.
Federer was not the same after 2009, and then his physical decline started when Djokovic was reaching his physical and mental prime, I don´t think you can make a strong argument of old post prime Federer being present as a sign of a strong field, and Nadal was always there mainly to defend clay titles, there was no consistent younger rival to make things competitive for Djokovic for a long timespan in the way he or Nadal did it to older Federer.
 

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It's not a freakin blister, the mental part of being stabbed on the court does not go away "in weeks", you're completely obtuse or just cynical if you think a stabbing is just another injury, but that's exactly why people question and will keep questioning that record
Maybe, but it will still be a valid record and the questionings will still remain not objective assumptions. The fact that we´re still questioning if Djokovic will pass that record or not is a proof to that.
 

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Graff didn't admit but instead participated in the fanatical French crowd
It's wrong.

Steffi does not participate in any public "lynching" of Martina.

Hingis has been off the court for a while, and it's starting to drag on.

The already hot public throws an "ola" as it often happens when the tension rises in a match.

Graf is forced to wait for Hingis to return, and to relax, she participates in the ola, she who is usually rather reserved.

Even if it's regrettable, I remind that Hingis put herself in this situation of provocation and complacency, and ultimately of frustration and despondency by letting slip a match that she mastered, we must not reverse the roles

 

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This smear campaign against Graf for something a deranged fanatic (ala Jodie Foster & Hinckley) attempted is really getting passe at this point & should have minimal bearing on her GOAT like achievements.

Never heard of Foster getting criticised or her professional credits disparaged for Hinkley’s assassination attempt since that period.
 

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You are right, but because of the differences it was considered a slow court...that's why I said that Seles never beat Graf outside slow courts....while Graf had wins over Seles on every surface...
Those "slow courts" of the 90's were faster than any hc today. That transition to slower surfaces in 2000s, that "homogenization" killed woman's tennis. Courts in the 90's were too fast for men, it was unwatchable, but they were perfect for women.
 

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Those "slow courts" of the 90's were faster than any hc today. That transition to slower surfaces in 2000s, that "homogenization" killed woman's tennis. Courts in the 90's were too fast for men, it was unwatchable, but they were perfect for women.
I agree with you, that's why I said that at the time, they were considered slow courts. Wasn't speaking from today's perspective.
 

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Federer was not the same after 2009, and then his physical decline started when Djokovic was reaching his physical and mental prime, I don´t think you can make a strong argument of old post prime Federer being present as a sign of a strong field, and Nadal was always there mainly to defend clay titles, there was no consistent younger rival to make things competitive for Djokovic for a long timespan in the way he or Nadal did it to older Federer.
IF Federer was in decline after 09 then how come he has dominated Nadal since 17 and still made Wimbledon and USO final till 19 and the only person who could beat him in those finals was Djokovic?
 

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Any women's record is totally irrelevant if we're discussing men's tennis, GOAT debate or not. Comparing 🍎 and 🍊 At the end of the day, Djokovic is already the GOAT- he'll easily get 21 Slams having won 2 FO in the process. All the rest of this nonsense is dumb. Graf could have won 100 Slams and that's got nothing to do with how many Djokovic has won.
 

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It's wrong.

Steffi does not participate in any public "lynching" of Martina.

Hingis has been off the court for a while, and it's starting to drag on.

The already hot public throws an "ola" as it often happens when the tension rises in a match.

Graf is forced to wait for Hingis to return, and to relax, she participates in the ola, she who is usually rather reserved.

Even if it's regrettable, I remind that Hingis put herself in this situation of provocation and complacency, and ultimately of frustration and despondency by letting slip a match that she mastered, we must not reverse the roles

Only some south American crowds can get worse than this.
 
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