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It's pretty obvious to me that Miami is getting a little quicker each day, on average anyway. Only with the eye-test I can say that yesterday was faster than the first couple of days.

As for IW vs Miami, I couldn't tell the difference outside of the numbers suggesting something. I think people are too stuck with perceptions, even with numbers saying the opposite some would still claim one court is faster than the other. Even players probably have perceptions about courts they've visited in the past that might cloud their judgement, so you would have to take their words into moderation aswell.
 

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One other thing with any form of average at IW: they have Hawkeye everywhere, while a lot of tournaments don't have it on outside courts. Thus, you have a different distribution than most other events: based more on low ranked players, outside courts, and the first few days (and the weather on those particular days).
 

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Who the hell is Brad Gilbert anyway? Oh wait, it's the guy who picks Dimitrov as dark horse every friggin' time!

Gilbert has no credibility whatsoever.
 

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They could say one thing with the data, but from just looking at it the balls flew through the court in comparison to Miami. Just my opinion, but Miami was just painful to look at in some stages. Indian Wells looked medium at best while Miami this year looks like clay. If it looks and plays slower it's because of the heavy ass conditions. It really looks slow as shit compared to indian wells. Watch highlights from a match from each and compare for yourself.
 

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For what it's worth, there's a lot of disagreement among the players. They're always asked to compare the two, and some players think IW is way faster, some think it's the same, some think Miami is faster.

Of course players often disagree, but with these two it's seemingly very much down to player type.
 

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They could say one thing with the data, but from just looking at it the balls flew through the court in comparison to Miami. Just my opinion, but Miami was just painful to look at in some stages. Indian Wells looked medium at best while Miami this year looks like clay. If it looks and plays slower it's because of the heavy ass conditions. It really looks slow as shit compared to indian wells. Watch highlights from a match from each and compare for yourself.
Thanks but I think that in 20 years I have watched more than simple highlights. As to IW and Miami I've even been there on a few occasions...

I'll stick to physics (that explains why balls fly faster through humid air than dry air for instance) and scientific datas (cpi, cpr, ace %).
 

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Well... both Indian Wells and Miami seem slow to this untrained eye when watching, as a whole not really producing exciting tennis.
 

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Thanks but I think that in 20 years I have watched more than simple highlights. As to IW and Miami I've even been there on a few occasions...

I'll stick to physics (that explains why balls fly faster through humid air than dry air for instance) and scientific datas (cpi, cpr, ace %).
Well to each their own. Still can never see Miami ever being remotely faster than Indian Wells. If you can't see it's faster it's your opinion. Coming up with a bunch of unreliable data doesn't just make the court faster. It's not only about perception alone either.

If there is any data on average rally length, ace count etc. That would help show how slow it is in comparison.
 

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Between Nadal and Federer. Nadal has always outplayed Federer in Miami. He never outplayed uninjured Federer in IW. The only time Rafa beat Roger in IW was when Fed had a back injury. Every other match at IW was a rout by Federer. Miami, pretty mach the other way around.. Explain that given the court speed.
 

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Ace percentage is not a reliable data point to tell exactly if the surface is fast or slow.
A single year isn't a big enough sample outside the slams, but over multiple years it's ok. However, using serve points won works better.

For what it's worth, longterm IW and Miami have basically identical serve stats.
 

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Between Nadal and Federer. Nadal has always outplayed Federer in Miami. He never outplayed uninjured Federer in IW. The only time Rafa beat Roger in IW was when Fed had a back injury. Every other match at IW was a rout by Federer. Miami, pretty mach the other way around.. Explain that given the court speed.
Fed and rafa only met thrice in Miami. It's a ridiculously small sample but still, in 2004 Federer was ill and should have never played that match. One year later, he prevailed in 5. And in 2011, Nadal fared much better in windy conditions.

When you compare Federer's average groundstroke speed in Miami to IW', it is roughly the same (fluctuates around 70 mph).

What people fail to understand is that playing in Miami's high relative humidity takes its toll on players' physical performance. This is why Djokovic is so strong here, he can grind out even the fittest athletes like Murray. Here's the result of the 3 setters he played in Miami since 2011:

- 46 63 76(4) vs Nadal in 2011 (one of the most grueling BO3 ever and the only time I've seen Nadal be short of breath)
- 60 57 61
- 67(3) 75 60
- 76(3) 46 60 vs Murray in 2015
 
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