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It's a lockdown? By definition that's not supposed to be permanent. The unvaccinated have made a choice to not get vaccinated and has thus not contributed to lowering the pressure on the healthcare system and reducing infections. Why should that choice be without consequences?
Please edit your post. You should know yourself that it's too easy to counter that. Getting sloppy..
 

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Person's health profile plays no part in lowering the chances of getting severe case of Covid?
Of course it does (although probably not as much as you think). Did I say otherwise? I asked how would you prove that you did those measures? How would the government control for it? It has to be practical aswell. We don't live in a fantasy world.
 

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Of course it does (although probably not as much as you think). Did I say otherwise? I asked how would you prove that you did those measures? How would the government control for it? It has to be practical aswell. We don't live in a fantasy world.
For a start, test the population for vitamin D levels, inform the population about its importance. But yeah, at the end of the day it's up to the individual, we on the anti co-vaxx side do not like to control people.
 

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Of course it does (although probably not as much as you think). Did I say otherwise? I asked how would you prove that you did those measures? How would the government control for it? It has to be practical aswell. We don't live in a fantasy world.
I think just as much as I think. Age, obesity, comorbidities and immunity in general are the driving factors of getting hospitalized or dying. Facts. And there's a tiny portion who, unfortunately, are opposite of old, obese, with diabetes and end up with a severe case.

You have fallen for the vitamin D studies aswell? Sigh.
That blogger dude of yours told you that all of them are wrong and irrelevant?
 

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I think just as much as I think. Age, obesity, comorbidities and immunity in general are the driving factors of getting hospitalized or dying. Facts. And there's a tiny portion who, unfortunately, are opposite of old, obese, with diabetes and end up with a severe case.
You didn't answer my questions...

That blogger dude of yours told you that all of them are wrong and irrelevant?
Vitamin D has been promised as a miracle cure for pretty much everything for a long time. But when actual RCTs are conducted usually no benefit is found. That's not to say that Vitamin D doesn't have it's uses. I have taken vitamin D on my doctor's order because I was deficient. This twitter thread sums it up pretty well:
 

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You didn't answer my questions...


Vitamin D has been promised as a miracle cure for pretty much everything for a long time. But when actual RCTs are conducted usually no benefit is found. That's not to say that Vitamin D doesn't have it's uses. I have taken vitamin D on my doctor's order because I was deficient. This twitter thread sums it up pretty well:
No one's talking about curing everything. It's a preventative. You are deficient, you take it. So should everyone else, but majority don't even know that they're deficient. A practical solution like this, should've been on the communication messages list of the governments. But it wasn't. At least not here.

As for your questions, what is there to answer. Locking everything down and ruining lives, to save lives (?) and wait for jabs is practical? We're almost worse than we were a year ago with ZERO vaccines. If your healthcare sucks during a crisis, find some other way to strengthen the healthcare system. You're getting paid to do that, not to undermine people's rights.

And lastly, it's a matter of principle. Read my response above to SilentBird. If more than half of people in your country yearly die from poor lifestyle choices, you can't just go and "ok, yeah, well.... what can you do? it's not like we can make people healthy over night but we need them healthy against this one virus now!! soooo, let's just start with a clean slate: from now on whoever makes a poor lifestyle choice (jab), he/she gets punished". It shouldn't work like that.

See? It's late here and I'm sacrificing my sleeping time for useless discussions. Discipline!
 

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No one's talking about curing everything. It's a preventative. You are deficient, you take it. So should everyone else, but majority don't even know that they're deficient. A practical solution like this, should've been on the communication messages list of the governments. But it wasn't. At least not here.
While I don't disagree on the advice it's still not a replacement for the vaccines. Which is always how these alternative solutions are presented as despite far poorer evidence of efficacy.
As for your questions, what is there to answer. Locking everything down and ruining lives, to save lives (?) and wait for jabs is practical? We're almost worse than we were a year ago with ZERO vaccines. If your healthcare sucks during a crisis, find some other way to strengthen the healthcare system. You're getting paid to do that, not to undermine people's rights.
No, a simple solution like a vaccine is practical. Telling people to completely change their lifestyles is not (and hasn't worked for years so why would it work now?). I don't know who you talk about when you say "we" but countries with a high vaccination rate seem to be doing quite ok compared to last year. In Denmark at least there's very few limitations especially if you're vaccinated (there's practically none). We can handle the same amount of infections that last year required quite severe restrictions. And that's even with fewer healthcare professionals. That's why the vaccine is a simple and practical solution.

And lastly, it's a matter of principle. Read my response above to SilentBird. If more than half of people in your country yearly die from poor lifestyle choices, you can't just go and "ok, yeah, well.... what can you do? it's not like we can make people healthy over night but we need them healthy against this one virus now!! soooo, let's just start with a clean slate: from now on whoever makes a poor lifestyle choice (jab), he/she gets punished". It shouldn't work like that.

See? It's late here and I'm sacrificing my sleeping time for useless discussions. Discipline!
What principle? All I see is a lot of whataboutism. The pandemic is causing severe strain on healthcare systems now. There's a simple solution and policy to solve that. That's really all there is to it.
 

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i just read that also Slovakia has decided a lockdown for unvaccinated.
a lockdown for everybody apparently isn't possible legally!
well,
but i still don't like this measure. it is hard to control and therefore either won't be very effective or requires a lot of control which is expensive (and yeah looks like in a sci-fi movie and seems more cynical than even i would go).

personally i would have preferred a more medical way: lockdown for everybody now. also vac mandates now, but by priority (so healthy antivaxxer clowns in their 20s will have to wait).
justification (attempt): the older people who need a booster shot are in danger too, currently. lockdown for vaccinated is legal as the vaccination is mandatory anyway. makes sense, no? :geek:
 

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While I don't disagree on the advice it's still not a replacement for the vaccines. Which is always how these alternative solutions are presented as despite far poorer evidence of efficacy.

No, a simple solution like a vaccine is practical. Telling people to completely change their lifestyles is not (and hasn't worked for years so why would it work now?). I don't know who you talk about when you say "we" but countries with a high vaccination rate seem to be doing quite ok compared to last year. In Denmark at least there's very few limitations especially if you're vaccinated (there's practically none). We can handle the same amount of infections that last year required quite severe restrictions. And that's even with fewer healthcare professionals. That's why the vaccine is a simple and practical solution.


What principle? All I see is a lot of whataboutism. The pandemic is causing severe strain on healthcare systems now. There's a simple solution and policy to solve that. That's really all there is to it.
Yes, changing lifestyles is not practical, but it's not fair for me to suffer because "it's not practical". Bad lifestyle choices lead to death and hospitalizations via many different routes. Covid included. Why I have to pay the price for people who put themselves in this position through years of damaging themselves?

I'm talking about Lithuania. We had the highest death rate and infection rate in Europe just couple of weeks ago with 1-3% less vaccinated population than Germany and UK. Covid passes are in full effect since September.

P.S. of course I'm excluding old people and those unfortunate ones who are not responsible for commorbidities they have.
 

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Criticizing the well established link between Vitamin D levels and COVID outcomes, while never criticizing the worst clinical trials in history (COVID vaccines).

I don't know how many times I see the word 'control' in these COVID narrative defender's posts - well, they get one thing right!
 

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Agree. No one has the right to anybody's labour. Vaxxed or not. Make healthcare private. Or at least make it public but with an option to opt out from it (getting exempted from tax burden obviously) and go private.

As for you witnessing it, I doubt a prosecutor would be bring you on stand. You're a terrible witness... Among those who you lump together as right-wing anti vaxx crowd, I bet there's a huge part of libertarian leaning people and all of them would say that healthcare is not a human right. But, unfortunately, you only look at it from one side. Riddle me this: according to European Commission, in 2019 more than half of deaths in Lithuania were attributed to poor lifestyle choices. Around 40k people die each year in Lithuania (that's many times more than only from Covid), so more than half would be over 20k. Obviously, they also die during the pandemic and end up in the hospital before their death. Does a person who falls into that category has the equal right to healthcare like a person who never made those choices? Since you mentioned that healthcare is not a human right, I assume the answer is going to be yes. In that case, shouldn't the same apply now, when people are forced to make a certain health related choice?
Why am I a terrible witness? I explicitly asserted it's a contradiction because I've been noticing the right-wing libertarians feign outrage over denied healthcare.

I disagree with your analogy. Poor lifestyle choices is too vague and subjective a category. "Poor lifestyle choices" does not have the same dynamic as a contagious pandemic. The pandemic overloads the healthcare system in a similar way to a war (although the current pandemic is less lethal than a war). Poor lifestyle choices lead to very different outcomes and treatments. By your logic, a person who injures themselves in a risky sport like hang-gliding or even skiing shouldn't be treated? Ridiculous. The whole structure of the healthcare system is established to accommodate the "demand" for various surgeries and treatments that arise from poor healthcare choices. Perhaps if the covid pandemic turns endemic, in a couple of years or decades, the system will expand to meet the demand for covid treatments so that they would not overload the whole system. The main point is, the changes take time because they operate through a process of incentives, and not by simply demanding acces by declaring something a "human right", or throwing money at it.
 

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The revived mask mandate was scheduled to go into effect Sunday at 11:59 p.m. Under the rules, everyone regardless of vaccination status must wear a mask in indoor public settings, as well as in private settings including homes when non-household members are present.

Who exactly would invite people round to their house for you to all sit around and wear masks? Mandating what people do in their own homes is definitely overkill and also pointless.
 

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Why am I a terrible witness? I explicitly asserted it's a contradiction because I've been noticing the right-wing libertarians feign outrage over denied healthcare.

I disagree with your analogy. Poor lifestyle choices is too vague and subjective a category. "Poor lifestyle choices" does not have the same dynamic as a contagious pandemic. The pandemic overloads the healthcare system in a similar way to a war (although the current pandemic is less lethal than a war). Poor lifestyle choices lead to very different outcomes and treatments. By your logic, a person who injures themselves in a risky sport like hang-gliding or even skiing shouldn't be treated? Ridiculous. The whole structure of the healthcare system is established to accommodate the "demand" for various surgeries and treatments that arise from poor healthcare choices. Perhaps if the covid pandemic turns endemic, in a couple of years or decades, the system will expand to meet the demand for covid treatments so that they would not overload the whole system. The main point is, the changes take time because they operate through a process of incentives, and not by simply demanding acces by declaring something a "human right", or throwing money at it.
A libertarian would say that healthcare is not a human right from the perspective that it shouldn't be public. It should be private. On the other hand, if the government is taking from your paycheck, that becomes your right. Your typical stateist would, of course, claim that it is though.

Your example with skiing: of course I don't think that. I precisely would use an argument like that for why unvaxxed must get the same treatment as vaxxed.

I feel like going in circles for months talking about it... Anyways:


Here you have a percentage of fully vaccinated people in UK, Germany, Denmark and Lithuania. Up until July 15th all countries had a similar vaccine uptake. Fastforward to Nov 23rd and Denmark, obviously, rallied to 77% or something like that, but my focus is on Lithuania which lags only less than 2% behind UK and Germany in terms of vaccinations. Switch the 'Metric' tab to confirmed deaths and make sure that 'Relative to Population' is checked.

What we see now is that Lithuania was leading almost anytime during the pandemic with few exceptions when UK was in the front. Worth noting that even prior vaccinations Lithuania was having at least 3-5 times the death rate of Denmark. Since March 4th 2021 there wasn't a single point in time when Lithuania wasn't #1. Keep in mind that vaccination rate was virtually the same in all the countries ( Lithuania was actually #2 on March 4th ). I don't think I need to explain what you can see for yourself in that graph but I will only highlight that in November Lithuania had 6 to 10 times higher death rate than UK and Germany while having less than 2% lower vaccination rate than those countries. Fully vaccinated statistics in Lithuania by age group: 60+ 75.2% , 50-59 74.3% , 25 - 49 73.1% . The rest are irrelevant but 18-25 are 69-70% vaccinated.

Having this information combine it with European Commissions 2019 data that Lithuania is leading in a lot of healthcare related metric like: deaths from coronary heart diseases or preventable and amendable deaths (this is actually from 2015 but I doubt anything changed), or maybe the fact that we're #1 country by suicide deaths. And, my previously mentioned fact that more than half of people die from poor lifestyle choices

I'm starting to sound like a clockwork to myself but I want to make it very clear: you and I have this information. What you don't have and I do is the rhetoric from our politicians throughout the pandemic. Quick note: we had elections during the pandemic, so we had two different governments managing the pandemic response. You will have to take my word on it - not a single time a government or healthcare system itself was mentioned as having any impact on the severity of pandemic in my country. Maybe government was mentioned but the blame came from one party to another, so it's just political talk. Anyways, the blame always fell on the people. First it was the ones who dare to go out (we had a strict mask mandate and lockdown last winter and another one before that where movement between counties was restricted unless you have work permit or own a property; not to mention shut down barbers, gyms, shops and other businesses; I'm telling you...people are compliant here). Later - the unvaccinated.

Given the information at hand, maybe, just maybe... there're other factors beyond whether a person is vaccinated or not, whether he's healthy or not that have significant impact on the severity level of the pandemic that a country experiences?
 
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